[Complete] The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition

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Dunno
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Post by Dunno »

I'm just going to refrain from commenting on this one (I believe I've sent a pm to neki about this some time ago when I was preparing the tournament) and let others say what they think and base my opinion on that.
Btw, bumbadadabum and AI0867: you're on the 2nd place in the reserve list. Team Name Pending sounds nice :lol2:
Neki: I still haven't got an official sing-up message from you guys...
Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?

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neki
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Post by neki »

When we click on the TGT forum link, how can we direct it to the latest post instead of the first post ? How can I make a link to my rules (end of page 2 of posts) ?

Thank you for your support,

neki

AI
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Post by AI »

bumbadadabum wrote:Team name pending
Members: AI0867 and bumbadadabum
Timezone: GMT+1
Actually, thanks to DST, we're at UTC+2.

Dauntless
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Post by Dauntless »

The sun sets over the hilltops of the Gryphon mountains and turns the surrounding valleys crimson.

Image
An there, on the horizon, a small spot appears. "What is it? Is it a rider?" ask the villagers. As the spot drawn near and grows, it separates into two. The silhuette of two riders becomes clear. Riders, who will fight for the destiny of Wesnoth...

It is a great honour for me to announce that Dauntless and neki will come back from their long sleep and unite their forces once again for the TGT 4.
We will fight for the future of Wesnoth under our classical banner, RNG. This time modified to Rusty Noob Gamers.
Time zone: GMT+1

All hail the TGT
Dauntless
Last edited by 8680 on August 4th, 2013, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Replaced [size] tags [Posting Guidelines §1d] with [b] tags.

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bumbadadabum
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Post by bumbadadabum »

AI wrote:
bumbadadabum wrote:Team name pending
Members: AI0867 and bumbadadabum
Timezone: GMT+1
Actually, thanks to DST, we're at UTC+2.
Ah, of course.

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neki
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Post by neki »

Nice intro, Daunt. You never cease to surprise me! Btw. guys, please provide feedback/amendments for the rules: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 25#p557925 It's our chance to improve (or not) the TGT, be proactive about it, don't sleep it out!

Also, it s awesome that there are so many teams willing to participate. However, we should prioritize those teams, whose both players are active on the forum. There were at least 2 cases that I can remember of, when one team mate was never present on the forums/nor in game/nor anywhere. I kindly propose that this should be a rule: Team is not enlisted before both players express their wish officially on the forum. I see some active teams in the reserve list. Do they belong there ? Who knows, we got to regulate that better, I think.

Just my two cents,

neki

anoel
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Post by anoel »

can we get a list of units already chosen?

i will let my teammate announce our avatar after we have chosen one.

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tekelili
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Post by tekelili »

Unless one of them want change avatar I have this ones as chosen:
edit: As I will chose if they dont, and maybe some of them agree with my taste, I add the provisional avatar I am using for teams didn´t chose yet. (provisional avatars are in red and can be chosen for other teams meanwhile they are not confirmed)

name="Rusty Noob Gamers"
avatar="Dwarvish Berserker"

name="Nerds R US"
avatar="Elvish Sorceress"

name="Tentacles of the Deep"
avatar="Tentacle of the Deep"

name="Spaghetti Bolognese"
avatar="Saurian Augur"

name="Young Yippies"
avatar="Young Ogre"

name="Burning Wose Commando"
avatar="Wose"

name="Apocalyptic Recreation"
avatar="Dark Adept"

name="Garuda"
avatar="Gryphon"

name="Winged Cudgels"
avatar="Drake Glider"

name="Noob Leavers"
avatar="Orcish Ruler"

name="Bounce and Bubbens"
avatar="Cavalryman"

name="Cerberus Team"
avatar="Troll Whelp"

name="Pffffff F.C."
avatar="Dwarvish Thunderer"

name="Name Pending"
avatar="Ghost"

name="99% Serious"
avatar="Orcish Warrior"

name="The Motherlanders"
avatar="Giant Rat"
Last edited by tekelili on September 2nd, 2013, 4:19 pm, edited 16 times in total.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II

aThecret
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Post by aThecret »

Team name: slackers on line
Team avatar:Elvish Avenger, if not available 2nd choice is Elvish Archer

WE WANT THIS Elvish Avenger! :P

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alpha1
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Post by alpha1 »

Greetings fellow wesnothians!

It's great to see that the TGT lives on even if its original admins and creators all but departed from the lands of living and are rumored to have traided their wesnoth-glory for the dark gifts real life has to offer. However Dauntless and me, perceiving Dunno's call, decided to forestall the inevitable and materialize on the wesnoth-server once more, attending the tournament in whatever way our present form allows us. Since real life chains binding my wesnoth-self are particularly strong and won't allow me to participate in any active role i decided to assume a persona of the official TGT-Advisor and will provide Dunno with help and advice as long as i can. Dunno is still the head Admin though and always has the final word in the tournament matter.

This said i wish both participants and organisers good luck with the tournament, bloody battles and wise TGT-Admin decisions!

Sitting in the VIP lounge Lurking in the shadows of the TGT-Throne, whispering dark secrets and forgotten lore in Dunno's ear...
alpha1


Image


ps. having been involved with doom quite a few times in my wesnoth career (either as Ducks of Doom member or Dr. Doom impersonator) i can't help but compliment current TGT-Admin for his tournament theme choice :D


Now to the bussiness part.


@everyone: The TGT rules have been updated. Time of day must be manually set to "fixed" as it's random for 2vs2 maps by default.


@tekelili: thanks for your support, i'm glad you decided to help out with opening ceremony for this TGT edition as well. However i will have to say that this statement:
tekelili wrote:"About avatars for ceremony, tgt3 crew and me decided that lvl2 units could be chosen only for veterans."
is not quite accurate. Giving vets lvl2 units and rookies lvl1 was your decision alone. I was against it, as i wanted every tournament participant, no matter his skill lvl or any past accomplishments, receive equal treatment (as they will in the tournament), even on the aesthetical lvl. IIRC other Admins were indifferent. Regardless, as i'm no longer an admin i'll let you and Dunno decide how you want to do it in this edition.

@neki wb mate :) i glanced over your rules, alas i don't have enough time to discuss them in depth, but since you wanted to hear an opinion i'll write down my general thoughts. The rules you are suggesting seem to be a bit rigid and way too complicated. Even with our simple rule of "play 3 games in 3 weeks" we ALWAYS had problem with teams not being able to play their games for whatever reasons. Now with your rules i have a feeling only few teams would actually read & understand them and even fewer would be able to follow them. As to your showdon rule, it seems to be aimed mainly at admins and provide them with some kind of strict code to base their decisions upon? I'm kinda afraid, that if this kind of rule set was implemented, it would put both admins and players in some sort of straightjacket that would cause both additional problems on the player side and prevent admins from finding a flexible approach on the other side.

Basically at this number of participants i believe it's more efficient to have a basic rule set with relatively free admins who can investigate each problem individually and find an individual solution depending on the situation. Now if we had hundreds of participants and only few admins than we would need some kind of detailed rule set in order to automatize the process and make it easier for admins to maintain the tournament. Ofc there would be a problem with rule enforcement and players would need to provide some timestamps to prove that they were there at that particular moment of time etc. But this solution is imho not necessary at this point.

One more thing to consider. Even with our current 3games/3weeks rule, it's perfectly possible for a strict admin to achieve same results as with your rules. Just stick strictly to it, ban team that was at fault that games weren't played (there is always a team that is more at fault) auto-advance the other. However we tried to be lenient with teams in the past and give everyone a possibility to play their games out. How lenient one should be is ofc an open question and even among admins there was rarely a single opinion on how problem-cases should be treated. It's more or less a matter of personal administration style and nothing really stops current admin from enforcing this rule making sure rounds end when they are supposed to end :twisted:
If you have any wishes or suggestions concerning the TGT or just want to drop me a message, pls pm me at: alpha1_pm
I won't be able to see any messages that are sent to alpha1.

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neki
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Post by neki »

Nice to see you, alpha1! And thanks for your feedback, but... no thanks.

Firstly, if you are going to comment anything about the rules, please read them entirely. Secondly, you are just saying: Why write clear and specific laws, because people would not read them anyways. Rules are detailed so we have transparent procedures, that make life much easier within disputes. Whoever wants to read them, he/she will understand what the tournament is all about. Who doesn't want to read them, fine, the admins will enforce the decisions anyways according to the rules and beyond - as long as the special situations will not be covered by the rules.

Your effort is appreciated, but please at least have the decency of reading through before you dismiss something on "arguments" that have nothing to do with the rules presented.

Don't get me wrong, still think you're a great guy, but your post was not based on logical arguments.

Cheers,

neki

P.S.: Please provide more feedback before this turns into the same slow action sparse tournament we had before. Saying: we do not need rules, admins are wise and can solve all is just laziness and disinterest. Coming up with simpler and shorter rules that achieve the same purpose, now that's constructive feedback. Don't turn this into a social barbecue party. Don't get me wrong, barbecue parties are good, but do not bring them to a "tournament". Or at least call it The Grand Social Party and instead of Hell vs Earth make it Idle Chatter vs. Friendly Debate

EDIT: Rules link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 25#p557925
EDIT2: If the core of my rules gets accepted (100% ensuring a hard 4 week limit for a round and an action packed tournament and at the same time offering plenty of time for the scheduling of the matches - one week more than the unrealistic traditional 3 weeks for one round approach) I am willing to volunteer as a referee, thus investing more of my precious time in this tournament. I can even commit to being there at the beginning of every game (for at least 5 minutes) to ensure that everything is fine or to kindly re-explain the rules to the players regarding the NO SHOWS or SHOWDOWNS, if any of those occur.

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Dunno
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Post by Dunno »

alpha1 wrote:Lurking in the shadows of the TGT-Throne, whispering dark secrets and forgotten lore in Dunno's ear...
Or are you... http://youtu.be/5qAKXK_aLeA?t=1m30s :twisted:

Rules on avatars: In my opinion it would be good to have different level units for different level teams. Just to spice up the competition a bit. So anyway:
Newcomers can choose any unit with levels 0 or 1.
Veterans can choose any units with levels 0, 1 or 2.
And finally, champions and vice-champions can choose any unit they want.
Just a reminder: champions' avatar will be immortalised as a statue!

And back to neki: you have to understand that lengthy rules are a real problem, not just laziness. And in TGT 4 we have to rely mostly on fresh blood (there are only 4 veteran teams!) who will have to read all of the rules at once. Veterans, like you, know the basic rules set and that's why they don't see anything wrong in adding more rules. But try to put yourself in a noob's position - how much of the rules can you understand at once? They are already quite long.
You do make solid points, though. TGT being unfriendly for observers is a fact and it should be fixed. However, I will still insist on not doing something like "no exceptions possible". And I agree with what alpha1 has said: "at this number of participants i believe it's more efficient to have a basic rule set with relatively free admins". In the next edition, which may be set for 24 teams, we could, and probably will need more automatisation, but not now.
Also, please note that most of your rules are already (directly on indirectly) implemented. The ones I'd add from your set (with small tweaks) are:
  • No match session can be shorter than 3 hours! -previously set to 2 hours, so let's make a compromise here
  • A match that has not been announced (6 hours before) cannot and will not be considered - it just never took place, as far as we are concerned! Respect the viewers! -again, trying to make a compromise. For many of us 12 hours may be too much: say a match is scheduled for 7 p.m (a reasonable time). This would mean that teams would have to announce on 7 a.m and that is quite early. So let's make it 6, since most matches will take place in the evening, and most viewers will not probably browse the forum in the morning/early afternoon anyway.
I don't want to use the showdown rule as an official rule, but I will probably use it when it's needed. Again, this is a relatively small tournament matches-wise so I don't see the need to add an official, long and complicated procedure for something that will probably happen once or twice at most.
And I'll tell you the brutal truth (since you seem to like brutal things :wink: ): if I ever have to choose, I'd rather have this tournament players-friendly than obs-friendly. Observers are important of course, and that's why I try to fix this problem, but I have to make a compromise here, neki. I hope you'll understand.

me after saying these words:
Image

Sincerely,
Dunno

P.S: this is not a final decision yet so please do comment. Oh and by the way, neki, you might want to change the link in your signature to http://www.youtube.com/user/NekisBrutalWesnoth I don't remember if you were around when it happened but someone was kind enough to re-upload your videos to this channel (I don't remember their name as well).
Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?

alpha1_pm
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Post by alpha1_pm »

@Dunno well at least his final words seemed apporpriate ;)

@neki no worries i can deal with critique (and counter-critique) ;) Saying i glanced over them was an understatement, since i was glancing at them for something like 15 minutes. I actually reread them once again before writing this post, so now you can be 100% sure i got every single word you wrote :geek: The problem remains the same though. Those rules are way too cumbersome to be realistically implemented. We already have problems with people not being able to follow our basic rules (that's not meant as an accusation, just my observation based on what i've seen in the last 3 tournaments). Making them complicated would lead to even less games being played, since more players would auto-advance due to their opponents not being able (for whatever reasons) to comply with the strictness of the new rules.

And i would rather not see situations like 2 players each controlling a side fighting it out on a 2vs2 map, cause their respective partners were disqualified as one of your rules suggests.

As to the obs vs players debate. As i said above, it can be already difficult for players to play out their games with the rules as they are, putting artificial obstacles in their way for the sake of observers makes this situation only worse. Even then players are obliged to post replayes of their game, so observers will see games they wish to see either live or in a replay.

EDIT: bah wrong account, but it's still me ;)

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neki
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Post by neki »

I just don't understand you guys. You are basically saying: "new people are brain dead, they won't read rules". Can you give them a fracking chance ? I tell you: whoever reads rules will read a set of cohesive rules, even if it is one bloody post longer. Whoever doesn't read rules, won't read rules anyways, no matter how lengthy they are. RULES DON'T WIN GAMES! Good play wins games. Rules are there to ensure we deal with NO SHOWS formally, through proper channels. Why should X be understood cause he goes on a holiday and Y be discriminated cause he actually respects the tournament rules and prioritizes his schedule accordingly ? Why should the whole community wait 1 month cause a game doesn't seem to ever finish ?

You have a problem, holiday ?! Fine, my rules give you channels to have that holiday and enjoy the tournament without everybody stopping in place for you! You are four strategic campers that need two weeks to finish one game ?! Fine, my rules give you a very decent 13 days till a SHOWDOWN decides a bloody outcome. You do not even understand the rules, you only talk about their length.

Written rules make your job easier as organizers and my experience as a player more enjoyable. You have four nice social players and you want to hug and kiss each other endlessly. Fine with me, but I need to know that after 4 weeks this round is over and I can start another round. You are saying: We will deal with everything. How ? Do you respect me enough as a participant to tell me how in advance so I can plan my busy schedule accordingly to ensure everybody gets their share of the fun without things stagnating endlessly ?

Having a set of rules for decently often occurring situations will provide you with credibility when you say: I will make sure one round ends in four weeks. I do not care about the rules you put in place, I wasted enough of my time trying to help you with clearly formulating them and offering a difficult commitment of "refereeing" each game.

But I am telling you right now that if a round takes more than four weeks, I am leaving the tournament right away.

It's the fourth TGT and the organizers seem to be doing the same mistakes over and over and over and over (fourth time) again. You cannot rely on the newcomers to step up and impose these rules to you. The fact that they did not raise any objections yet should be enough proof of acceptance. They do not understand the problems we had in previous TGTs but I am sure they will not raise any objection to this rule set as it does not discriminate anybody or any situations. Everybody has legal channels to approach the tournament in any way convenient for their real life problems without spoiling the fun for anybody.

Guys, speak up your mind already ?! Even if nobody speaks up their mind positively due to fears of associating themselves with me, I think that all participants should vote on the set of rules before the tournament starts.

Cheers,

neki

EDIT: Rules link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 25#p557925
EDIT2: Our 3 posts together (alpha1 and Dunno) are already longer than my ""lengthy"" rules, which have a lot of newlines for clarity, by the way. So I am starting to not understand the length issue either
Last edited by neki on August 3rd, 2013, 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CrimsonKing
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Post by CrimsonKing »

Looks like the another TGT will be a great spectacle.

I've already got the déjà vu feeling when I read through this topic.

Going to observe it tentatively...
Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
Stranger: Indeed?
Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
Stranger: I wear no mask.

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