[Complete] The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition

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tekelili
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by tekelili » August 3rd, 2013, 10:19 pm

Dunno wrote: And finally, champions and vice-champions can choose any unit they want.
Just a reminder: champions' avatar will be immortalised as a statue!
.
dunno have last word here, but me like artist would like ask for something:
limit should be lvl2 for avatars. Champios are lvl3 (as statues) and tgt crew is lvl3 or more. It would be overhelming and out of place have also lvl3 units on the Arena imo. I have other request: Champions must chose be a lvl3 unit as statutue, becuase I tried place a tentacle as statue and was totally ridicolous, and kinda same with dwarvish berserker. I placed a Sea Serpent as champion statue for tentacles, and really hope they understand me and dont apologize for it.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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alpha1
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by alpha1 » August 3rd, 2013, 10:29 pm

Crimson King doesn't want a people to rule
but puppets to entertain his madness.
If you have any wishes or suggestions concerning the TGT or just want to drop me a message, pls pm me at: alpha1_pm
I won't be able to see any messages that are sent to alpha1.

The Black Sword
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by The Black Sword » August 3rd, 2013, 10:31 pm

What's with the love of 4 hour sessions? If teams can play for 2 hours each evening but they can never quite make a 4hr period then they're not allowed to play at all? That's crazy.

Showdowns are also a stupid idea, lets give the players no say in when the game will be arranged?

I know you'll say that the admins will be flexible etc, but then why put it down in the rules at all.

Give people 3 days to schedule their next match within the next 7 days. In those 7 days they must have 4 hours of game time set aside, fine, but not necessarily all at once. By the end of that 7 day period, the players must have a schedule for the following 7 days, again with at least 4 hours of game time, and once more for a final 7 day period. If a team can't meet the 4h requirement then they should be using this 3/7 day period to get a sub or explain satisfactorily to the admins why they will be able to make up the time in the following period. If neither is possible then they may have to be removed from the tournament. Anything else, let's trust the admins.

I read that thing at least twice and honestly can barely remember any of it.

Also, this
Basically at this number of participants i believe it's more efficient to have a basic rule set with relatively free admins who can investigate each problem individually and find an individual solution depending on the situation.
and this
if I ever have to choose, I'd rather have this tournament players-friendly than obs-friendly
Neki, you posted those rules this morning, vet spots are reserved for another week, people have plenty of time to respond if they want to. Welcome back btw :P .

Alphy: nice to see you again, VIP lounge gone out of fashion?

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peace
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by peace » August 3rd, 2013, 11:04 pm

@neki's rules:
I don't think we should overdo rules. It's true that rules don't win games, but too many or too strict rules may actually win tournaments. I think it'd be best to have the actual play in the games be the focus of the tournament, not a big collection of rules to force disqualification of your opponents. (There actually has already been a big wesnoth tournament, that has been decided by organizer's jugdement.)
You proposed two rules (sessions lasting at least 4 hours and sessions having to be announced 12 hours before start), that might be good for observers, but limit opportunities to play. Considering you have to match four players schedules, it is likely that such a 4 hour session can be played only on weekends. In this case problems with the timeline of the rules might arise, that could have prevented if players were allowed to play 1-2 hours every day (maybe even spontaneous sometimes). I think it's absolutely reasonable if players tell beforehand how long the session will be at the least, even if it's just 1 hour.
I'd like to know how observers feel about short or spontaneous sessions. I myself wouldn't actually consider observing a game for 4 hours and longer; I'd rather quit these boring slow games after an hour and watch the replay once the game is finished. For this kind of watching the tournament I'd actually like to see a request like in the TAF tournament: teams are requested to upload their replays independently of the winner (so not always the winning team reports) and put the result in spoilers.

@tekelili:
Speaking for myself, you are the master of the ceremony and it's up to you how you arange it. Of course, the tentacle is the most obvious choice to represent our team, but I'm fine with a serpent as a statue as well. Isn't it just a shapeshifted tentacle anyway?

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Mint
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by Mint » August 4th, 2013, 1:59 am

@neki - Good to see you around again :wink:
However, is this planned to be a northern hemisphere only tournament?
neki wrote: Since scheduling is a difficult task and the crowd wants to see action after waiting so much for a match, each scheduled match session must be at least 4 hours. After 4 hours the match can be saved and each team has the right to demand a save.
4 hours sessions? Yikes. I have to bring up a problem with this that you wouldn't have; time zone difference. GMT +9:30 for this tournament will be tough already. I have plans to get up quite early in the morning to be one of the only times I can actually play my games. Otherwise these games would start late at night, 10-11ish. 4 hour games takes me all the way to 3am on days I'd need to wake up at around 7... That time is still much harder to find a game than say waking up at like 4am (my earliest possible). 4am(ish) start with say 4 hour sessions would take me to 8, and I just can't stay that long. Minimum 4 hour sessions would mean I drop out of this TGT4...
4 hour games punishes those who are not in the most common timezone.
neki wrote:If at least a Match 1 session (4 hours) has been played and teams are unable to schedule the continuation before the 10 days (7 days + 72 hours) deadline, a SHOWDOWN is declared { 13 days into the round (Saturday) at [ 7pm + (Team1 GMT + Team2 GMT) / 2 ] }, where Team1 GMT is the average GMT of team 1 and Team 2 GMT is the average GMT of team 2.
Good thing there aren't any American teams in this tournament, otherwise this rule would hurt for me :augh:

Funny how all Wesnoth tournaments are tough if you're not a European.

You wanted cents neki, so there was my two cents on your rule additions. I do agree with your other points though. :)

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tekelili
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by tekelili » August 4th, 2013, 2:01 am

peace wrote:@tekelili:
Speaking for myself, you are the master of the ceremony and it's up to you how you arange it. Of course, the tentacle is the most obvious choice to represent our team, but I'm fine with a serpent as a statue as well. Isn't it just a shapeshifted tentacle anyway?
lol, yes. Problem is not color, is size. I am requesting for that reason only lvl3 units as statues. It doesnt looks obvious at first glance, but Colosseum Map (by Frezycus), is quite clever creating a "false perspective". Have bigger units on ceiling than in arena reforce the trick, while inverse "destroy" it.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Abstract
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by Abstract » August 4th, 2013, 4:45 am

I am your referee. Looking forward to the tournament.

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neki
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by neki » August 4th, 2013, 9:06 am

Mint wrote:@neki - Good to see you around again :wink:
However, is this planned to be a northern hemisphere only tournament?
Time zones make no discrimination in regard to the hemispheres, can I kindly suggest a geography course ?!

Secondly, the time for the SHOWDOWN is actually set so it takes into account the time zone difference. Suppose a team from Europe (GMT+1) has to play a team form Australia (GMT+9). The average GMT will be GMT+5. The showdown will take place at 7 PM GMT +5, that means 11 PM Australia time and 2 PM England time. You are right, 11 PM might be too late for Australia, so we can move the SHOWDOWN time to 5 PM (GMT1 + GMT2) / 2. Do you understand the time formula for SHOWDOWN now ?! It scales for time zone differences!

Also @TheBlackSword. Clearly, you need to read the rules again, because you are confused and you did not understand them well. SHOWDOWN can only occur after at least one match session has been played. So, if 13 days into the round (plenty of time) you didn't manage to finish a bloody game, because scheduling is difficult cause real life problems and time differences, etc. SHOWDOWN is declared to decide a bloody winner for that game (not the whole round). Would you like for the admins to decide the winner ? Would you like to vote on the winner ? Will you want us to hug and kiss both teams to kindly convince them to play cause a whole tournament is waiting for them, would you like for us to cry aside them thinking about their real life problems for a whole month ? Well, you could do that, but I honestly prefer SHOWDOWN, the game is played until somebody wins or a side DCs. SHOWDOWN is like a last resort to finish the game on time. SHOWDOWN occurs 1 day (always a Saturday at 5 PM (GMT1 +GMT2)/2) before the hard deadline of playing the game. And scheduling sessions is hard, the more sessions, the more problems, 4 hours may be too much, we can settle for 3 hours, but nothing usually happens in 2 hours. It's like 1 hour in 1v1. We have to play games having in mind finishing them. 3 hours limit is OK, I think everybody agrees to that.

EDIT: According to general feedback, I have modified the rules for minimum 3 hours duration limit and the SHOWDOWN time to 5 PM (GMT1 + GMT2) / 2. Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 25#p557925

EDIT2: Why are u so confused, TheBlackSword and peace: My rules say just that: you have 13 days into the round to play game 1, 20 days to play game 1 and 2 and 27 days to play game 1,2 and 3. If the games ain't over by these deadlines, SHOWDOWN takes place, which is much more fun and fair than an admin's decision. The time limits I have set seem more than reasonable. My rules guarantee we finish a round in 4 weeks. And they deal with NO SHOWS situations which if occur twice (in 2 rounds) for the same player, that disqualifies the team. It can occur safely once (for one round) if the player has a real life problem or holiday. A team can have 2 NO SHOWS with no problems, if the 2 NO SHOWS are distributed one for each player. That's all there is to it, more or less. There you have it, my rules explained in a paragraph. The official text covers details and makes sure it cannot be misinterpreted.

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nani
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by nani » August 4th, 2013, 9:25 am

First of all, I read all of neki's rules in detail, and I find the way to harsh.
Imho the following would be enough for me though.
And since I am a simple person, the implementation is simple.
Remark: Everything would be adjustable individually by the judges ofc.
So here is my first draft of a proposal. ;)

Scheduling:
  • Predefined amount of days for a round to get finished.
  • Scheduling of matches (match sessions) within a round is not prescribed.
  • The length of a match session has to be >2 hours.
  • If unscheduled leavings are required earlier, a save can be requested, else a player is allowed to control both sides for the rest of the session.
Announcements/Reports:
  • Match announcements are not mandatory but highly desirable.
  • Result reports with replays are mandatory, details marked as spoiler.
Absences/Replacements:
  • Teams/Players not showing up for a planned/announced session are given a yellow card, unless the opponents show mercy.
  • The absent player's team mate is allowed to play both sides in this session, if the opponents agree.
  • Teams/Players with a yellow card not showing up for a planned/announced session may be given a red card and are excluded from tournament, unless the opponents show mercy.
  • It is allowed to replace one team player once (per tournament), in case of an exclusion.
  • Excluded teams in round 1 are replaced by a reserve team, while in further rounds, the opposing team wins the round.
  • Remember, settled sessions should be properly cancelled beforehand to avoid such situations.

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Mint
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by Mint » August 4th, 2013, 9:27 am

neki wrote:The average GMT will be GMT+5. The showdown will take place at 7 PM GMT +5, that means 11 PM Australia time and 2 PM England time. You are right, 11 PM might be too late for Australia, so we can move the SHOWDOWN time to 5 PM (GMT1 + GMT2) / 2. Do you understand the time formula for SHOWDOWN now ?! It scales for time zone differences!
@neki; For a start, should I suggest you to take a geography course? 7pm GMT + 4 hours is not 11pm in Australia, but 8:30am... :eng:
However that wasn't the main point of my post. It was 4 hour games in relation to non-european time zone. After posting more than once now that people need to put more effort into reading/understanding your posts, it is kind of amusing that I need to post the same advice for you. Please read my post again!

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neki
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by neki » August 4th, 2013, 9:48 am

@Mint You, my dear sir, are either blinded by your theory or plain...

7 PM GMT+5 <=> 8PM GMT+6 <=> 9PM GMT+7 <=> 10 PM GMT+8 <=> 11 PM GMT+9

Learn to count, please and in Australia that will be 11:30 PM

5 PM GMT+5 <=> 6 PM GMT+6 <=> 7 PM GMT+7 <=> 8 PM GMT+8 <=> 9 PM GMT+9 => 9:30 PM Australia time

Get it ? Get it already ? SHOWDOWN takes place at 5 PM on the timezone (GMT1 + GMT2) / 2 where GMT1 is the timezone of team1 and GMT2 is the timezone of team2.

You should read posts carefully, especially those containing examples, before you baselessly start insulting people.

@nani: Funny how you all start writing "simple" rule sets instead of modifying mine. Mine is equally simple only detailed enough to prevent misinterpretation. I don't care what rule set the tournament finally adopts, but as promised, if a round takes more than 4 weeks, I am leaving the "tournament" right away

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Blop
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by Blop » August 4th, 2013, 9:57 am

First of all let's change the tone please. This is not a commercial tournament, there's no need for harsh words.
Clearly there was a misunderstanding between you, neki, and Mint.

I agree that a basic rule set is a good thing to have and I don't think newer players will have problems with it (at least I don't).
I also agree in TBS's post on the duration of a session (4 hrs in succession is a bit much, you can't expect everyone to have such a free schedule). Minimum 2 hours sounds fine, most will play longer anyway.
I'm not sure about the showdown, but it might be needed at some point.

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Mint
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by Mint » August 4th, 2013, 10:06 am

@neki; Please don't insult me, as I have respect for you, and I have not insulted you. You were the one who insulted me in your first and second reply to me.
And if you do insist on insulting me, at least do it with some basis; you my friend are forgetting the final part of your calculation.
Yes, 5 PM GMT+5 <=> 6 PM GMT+6 <=> 7 PM GMT+7 <=> 8 PM GMT+8 <=> 9 PM GMT+9 => 9:30 PM. However this is the time in England, where GMT is. You still haven't added the time zone difference. This particular case is 9AM in South Australia. :annoyed:

And have you noticed the bit about the showdown was an aside, and not the main point of my first post? Take your own advice please :P

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nani
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by nani » August 4th, 2013, 10:17 am

neki wrote: Funny how you all start writing "simple" rule sets instead of modifying mine.
Fun fact is that I actually went through your rules point by point while writing mine.
Modifying your chaotic clump of legislative text aka rules felt a bit too ambitious, so I wrote them new from scratch. ;)
Maybe I shouldn't have written them at all.

It was more like ...
The Black Sword wrote:I read that thing at least twice and honestly can barely remember any of it.
and far from ...
neki wrote:equally simple
I personally prefer some little scope of interpretation and room for stretching, for me it is unnecessary for the rules to be
neki wrote:detailed enough to prevent misinterpretation
You should stop quarreling with people who are too simple minded to "understand" your rules.

Additionally I think most people's schedule rather allows a 8 week tournament with 2 hours every 2nd day,
than a 2 week tournament with 8 hours every 2nd day.
For example I won't be available 10 hours each day due to work, and I won't check TGT news there.
If I come home and see a request for a session in 4 hours, I might wanna take it,
and I won't blame the announcer since it wasn't according to any rules. Just an example where freedom wins against rules.
Just too much too comment on, I better stop here. :)
Don't say words like ...
neki wrote:if a round takes more than 4 weeks, I am leaving the "tournament" right away
We don't wanna see posts like this one anymore I guess, calm down, sir.

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CrimsonKing
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Re: The Grand Tag! 2v2 Tournament - 4th edition (Sign up now

Post by CrimsonKing » August 4th, 2013, 11:03 am

Some suggestions relating the rules:

- they shouldn't be too strict
- they should be player-friendly
- general clauses (like "respect other players time" etc.) should be used in a flexible way to approach multiple different situations by GM and Co-GM's

With a veteran players on the board (and their above-average etiquette and sportsmanship), this tournament should be managed best with flexible GM and Co-GM's decisions and a general set of the rules that could be precised by GM's decisions easily.

Strict rules for sure won't cover every possible situation that will come up during the tournament and TGT was always based on a cooperation between players and GM's since no one can force anybody to anything and penalising players and teams should be seen as ultima ratio after any other (even extraordinary) measure to deal with the situation has been exhausted.

Please, remember that nothing can kill someone's will to participate as effectively as trying to force him to do so. Consider that TGT gets crème de la crème players attention once again, it's safe to assume that they're going to act reasonably and that they're mature enough to understand that sometimes things just happen, but simultaneusly, they're ready to act in the way that will help to evade most of the unexpected situations willingly.

Best of the best together, once again after 2 years. Count on your superb élan guys and everything will be alright :)

Regarding keeping the obs interest alive:
- use the server announcements
- try to get the announcement on the wesnoth main site
- write a nice reports and comments regarding the tournament games in the thread; analysis are great to read and TGT always provided the best of 2vs2 experience possible to provide
...and most importantly...

- PLAY TRAINING GAMES before and inbetween the tournament games, invite other players to them, offer them a sub position in your teams if you'll decide that they're competent enough.

I'd even advice to create a system of official TGT training games - something like naming the official training games in a fixed matter, for example:

TGT TRAINING: ToD. vs. Nerds R US

Most of you are good or even exceptional wesnoth players - use your skills for some marketing purposes, you'll notice that it will affect the interest of the tournament and keep the blood hot - yours as well as the observers.

Part of the whole "reserve the spot for veterans" idea was not only to secure the high level of competition but also to get the best, most friendly, expert and interesting players on board that could use their charisma to affect others if they only wished - notice how your actions boosted the level of tournament interest in the previous editions.

Remember that after joining TGT, you're not just a participants. You're PART of it. :wink:

Best regards to you all,

- CK
Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
Stranger: Indeed?
Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
Stranger: I wear no mask.

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