[Complete] PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

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noob-killer
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by noob-killer » November 23rd, 2012, 2:41 am

Thanks Horus and all player PYRA
Congrats TBS :)

noob ^_^

The Black Sword
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by The Black Sword » November 23rd, 2012, 8:20 pm

As you might have guessed from noob-killer's comment, I won the second final game, the replay is attached.

Recruits
Spoiler:
Thanks to Mint for 2 nice finals games, unfortunately they never really got going, I think the map was against him in the last game, I'll be writing up a full analysis soon. Anyway, he's a great opponent and was very accommodating getting up so early to play me, his recruits were never quite what I expected(well, apart from the ever present grunt of course :P ).

Thanks to the rest of my opponents as well for some fun games, except noob-killer who ruined my perfect run :wink: .

And especially to Horus (and Mint again!), after running WTT, I know how much work and time a tournament takes, and in addition he maintains the era too! I think you did a great job with it, showing me how a tournament can actually be run on schedule and introduced me to an era I'm sure I'll pay more attention to.

It's been fun!
Attachments
PYRA_-_Crescent_Lake_Turn_13.gz
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Horus2
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Horus2 » November 28th, 2012, 10:49 pm

Little has been left for me to announce, but let me say it out loud (and in big letters):

The_Black_Sword has won!


Woot! It has been a long way to get here.

First, i was not expecting 28 players (and so few disqualifications) even with intense advertising campaign. Subsequently i have to admit that most participants have been persuaded personally by me; although i hope they don't mind after all. :mrgreen:
My goal was to popularise the era amongst the cream of players, showing that besides being entertaining, it is decent enough for competitive playing. I think i succeeded in this. On the days before starting there were times when in parallel four training matches have been played. It was monumental, felt like we are taking over the server. And the speed the first half of the Round 1 games has been played with made me wonder if it is the most enthusiastic company of players ever seen in a Wesnoth tournament, and reached a conclusion that definitely it is. You are awesome, seriously.
I tried to make this era as balanced and stable for the big event as possible by a one-man band, which was not easy. Lacking any feedback on forum and having a shortage of opponents to test with resulted in the realisation of having a playground for bugs rather than something stable. It describes the situation well that only when i already wanted to announce the start it turned out the statues are living, thus making six maps unplayable, yet i never heard that from anyone. As a matter of unit balance, i felt that this was the best i could come up with, luckily it served us well and resulted in numerous memorable and curious builds, like szdik570's lvl0 horde, TBS's mass archer army, Thief + Saurian Skirmisher promoted by thefish, the mighty and ultrapopular DAOG, and so on. Strategical discussions between players about their builds really added to the fun. Statistics showed that every unit received a little love, and even the least popular had a crucial role once on the side of the tournament champion. But your opinions and picking trends gave me some extra insight on balance to further perfectise it, as well as those who sent back the survey filled; i have to thank for for those once again. I will propose some possible changes here after this epic epilogue.
Also, if you have any constructive ideas on what would improve the era, hesitate not to share it with us here! During the tournament someone expressed the need for showing current list of recruits; if you support this idea, then it is going to be implemented in the next version. Same goes for tournament rules, so please share what you liked/disliked, so in the case of a second PYRAMID you can get a better system. *sinister foreshadowiiing!*
While i eliminated myself quickly in the first round, i could still keep myself amused with the replays. It was more than my duty to do so. I saw all of them, so it is safe to say that The_Black_Sword and Mint both totally deserved the first two place, their gamestyle were creative and classy, and hat goes off.
Thanks for everyone who fought till the end, whenever that end was for him/her!

Finally, special thanks goes to a special person who was much more than a mere sidekick or co-admin. Aside grabbing second position, he utilised massively entertaining recruits, he defeated his personal nemesis, he collected and arranged data size of a hill thus surpassed most amateur minecrafters, he revolutionised unit picking by spotting the planning mode, he corrected my spelling errors, he suggested many rule and unit cost changes, and his words were always the truth in general, whether they were about admin decisions or less PYRAMID-related contents. Without Mint this tournament would not been the same, if it would have been finished at all, and not ruined by arcane chaos and adbots halfway until moderators lock it.

I hope you liked it, and will request our services next time! *even more foreshadowiiing!*





And now let's talk about the future.

There is a PYRA 2.0 closed beta version available and WIP for those PYRAMID-participants who feel they can help the progress by actively testing the newly written components. It features two new gamemodes for start: Advanced is a link between Standard and Extended, with core units added like Thug or Mudcrawler, while Ultimate is a comfy haven for those who find 100 units insufficient for their exotic battling demands. Ultimate contains units like the Demon from IFTU/ATS campaign, Naffat from Khalifate era, and whatever looks good and for whatever i get the permission to include them.
It is quite likely if there will be any second PYRAMID, it will be played in the Advanced. Therefore this is the element i would like to give an overhaul the most. I'm looking for your cooperation!
Also on footnote, expect new 1v1 maps with new type of objectives (not just killenemyleader all the time), translations, strategy guide, and more.

And do not forget the unit survey! Those who haven't take it so far, it is the best time to consider changing it.


See you back tomorrow, when i will open the unit and map balance debate. If you want to convince me about something OP or UP or silly, it is the best time for this too.

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Mint
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Mint » November 29th, 2012, 5:01 am

With only 1 loss in the entire tournament and steamrolling me in the final, definitely a deserving winner. Congratulations TBS :)

But we couldn't have had this tournament without the help of Horus, who has spent many an hour ironing out bugs in his own era for the tournament, an era which already had hours of work. And then doing most of the administration for PYRAMID....
/Mint tips hat/

PYRAMID overall stats should be completed tomorrow.

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Horus2
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Horus2 » November 29th, 2012, 9:48 pm

PYRAMID Map And Unit Debate is open!

As a first step, i want to ask the involved players to advocate what should we discuss at all. Name the imbalanced maps and OP/UP units and describe in one line of text what you propose to change! Let us stick with Standard gamemode units for the time of being.

Short guide for unit balance:
  • In PYRA, units are compared to units. In the case of specialists where it is difficult or outright impossible to find a benchmark for, the gameplay effect of their presence is evaluated separately (how much the ability is worth by comparing base unit to a fictional unit without this ability).

    In the case of Standard units, any other changes than price is discouraged. I want to avoid the unnecessary confusion of new players by limiting unit modifications to minimum. Cav, Flappy. Footie, Mage and Orcish Archer conserved their 1.8 stats to keep their characteristics (mighty and mobile tin can, annoying etc.) or because of little changes could not have been evaulated properly to make it balanced in comparison (it is the round numbers' fault, why Wesnoth can not have silver specie?) Dwarvish Fighter levelup is there for technical reasons. However if we reach a conclusion that being loyal to this disciple leaves some unit second-grade, i will gladly erase it.

    Changes are still made by me, and not the majority. Luckily i have a weakness for clever arguments, so use it to your advantage.

Short guide for map balance:
  • Maps are either allowed or voted down. Modifications can happen however if that really makes difference for an imbalanced map, or the change is necessary due to the nature of the era (like delaying the walls tumbling down on Aethermaw).

    In most of the case, even maps less stable for default can balance themselves for PYRA because of the possibility to pick the units working well there. The most notable exception is when p1 by well-picked units (mixed alignment spam, scout rush, vilsteal by Blood Bat) is able to keep up an early pressure before p2 could even fortify himself/herself.

    If you have any custom maps to add to the PYRA maplist, do not hesitate to do it! Basically, the more map the merrier.


What i advocate to discuss:
  • Ghost - It was 19 once, then raised back to 20. I am not 100% happy with either of those numbers.
    Orcish Archer - Maybe it is 14?
    Poacher - If Orcish Archer is 14, then it is 12, although currently Bowman-Poacher comparison looks about fine.
    Thief - Highest damage output for a one-hex coverage and cheap price, yet very modest in the opponent's turn. 12 gold cost is open to talk about.
    Drake Glider - I probably overlooked how useful a flying scout with these handy damage types is. It is not unlikely that it will go up to 18.

    Aethermaw - This tricky map may allows tomato surprise setups to crush your opponent in a blink. Is it so?
    Crescent Lake - Even with 150 gold, under the continuous pressure of mixed alignment spam units p2 has a hard time with vils being far from castle.
    Ruined Passage - Noone ever dared to play on Mint's new map in Standard, and it is a shame. We need evidence and less prejudice! Give it a go, gentlemen!

Furthermore, have some fine graph showing unit popularity statistics based on the survey!
Unit popularity statistics:

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Mint
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Mint » November 30th, 2012, 10:34 pm

As much as I don't want the orcish grunt's price to go up, I think it needs to. They're too spammable compared to other fighters, being 2 gold less. All of my PYRAMID games involved grunts on my side, and many on the other. Its overused being so cheap. Probably needs to increase to 13g.

The merman fighter is still unworthy compared to the other fish, even at the same price. 13g might make it used, and it still would not be better than the others :)

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AxalaraFlame
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by AxalaraFlame » November 30th, 2012, 11:09 pm

orc grunt and dark adept finally prove themselves as the most worthy units...

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Rigor
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Rigor » December 1st, 2012, 12:49 am

agree to grunt merman and adept change gold costs by making the steps big, starting with plus or minus 2 gold at least. the ulf is too much of a key unit in the game. being responsible for making a bronze medal when customizing your recruits this unit needs to change in cost much more dramatically, e.g. more than 21. i didnt see the glider being too powerful but i think theres a reason why so many used him with pleasure. this era is much more fun than anticipated, gj!

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AxalaraFlame
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by AxalaraFlame » December 1st, 2012, 3:26 am

Disagree to add 2 gold and make such a fierce change. Add 1 and test it in the next version; sooner, decide whether we still need one more.

Besides, nerf HI price for 1 gold is suggested.

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Horus2
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Horus2 » December 6th, 2012, 5:39 pm

You are not unheard. You were calling for changes, and you will get it soon. Just not in the way you are expecting.

Be ready both emotionally and spiritually for the greatest comprehensive guide about a single unit ever happened here, right after i get rid off the remaining university nonsense (matter of days); until then, keep your opinions coming! May the floating cones spare your sanity.

Over and out.

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Rigor
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Rigor » December 6th, 2012, 7:56 pm

ok cool. give the useless merman hunter 4 attack strikes like all elves have. or 3 strikes with poison so it hurts for a change to play versus fish. or make them marksmen so they at least deliver the damage.

naga are a tad bit too fast i feel. why should they be faster than other fish? i find them overpowered :D they are so useful, depending what map u play.

the spearmans retaliation is a joke, why should he be able to damage enemies for ca 15% of their full hp? it should be 4 only.

archers for orcs should have just two strikes with fire and two with pierce. it fits their theme of dangerous nightfolk without giving them a pretty accurate chance to kill stuff the way they want.

the wose was once discussed to gain more cold weakness. perhaps this might be the place to finally translate the LCs decisions to action.

dwarves are so ridiculously useless once poisoned. whenever they survive, they eat gold per turn and have only half hp that will kill them eventually during the next waves. not sure how to tackle this situation, in this addon probably not that much a problem.

Image
Figure: poison rules

the elves in general have a ridiculously bad chance against every race because they usually dont have the power to attack on their own during the first couple of turns. it makes me wonder if the shaman unit should not be able to poison other units. it would fit the whole theme of nature-comprehending folks who can use roots and elixiers to their own good. the same should go for the lvl2 variant of elves. POISONOUS thorns :)

hope to ignite some sparks...

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Kanzil
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Kanzil » December 7th, 2012, 8:28 pm

Sparks lit. I have a serious/not so serious suggestion: the games are too long. I mean five hours?!? Poor employers/ colleagues/family/other people within the vicinity! To alleviate the situation I suggest:
a) ban Dauntless :P
b) delete the Pick-your-own-recruits bit of the Pick-your-recruits era, and thus undermine the most basic and important aspects of the gameplay.
c)prevent Horus from writing a backstory
d) make Wesnoth less addictive so I don't have to sit up for hours watching PYRA
[/amusing ramblings]
High over valleys in the red levelling rays -
In din of crowded streets, going among the years, the faces,
May I still meet my memory in so lonely a place
Between the streams and the red clouds, hearing the curlews, Hearing the horizons endure.

The Black Sword
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by The Black Sword » December 8th, 2012, 1:55 am

I have some thoughts on the current pricing that I've been meaning to do when I get time, will happen though.

In the meantime, I finally wrote up the last final game, you can see it in the strategy section.

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Horus2
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Horus2 » December 15th, 2012, 8:56 am

Kanzil wrote: c)prevent Horus from writing a backstory
Due to a majestic pile of bricks where education "sadistic double-preexams for which i get prepared from internet sources" happened, i wasn't able to write backstory about grunt balance and i feel bad for it. I hope Kanzil however is happy now at least. :mrgreen:

But finally i can return to this work of pleasure, and as a warmup, the following replay happened. It is played with the secret beta version but i suggest everyone having it to take a look inside, because if it was tournament material, it could have been in the top3 of matches. Also, notice the recruits, they are worthy to mention. But really, this game is kindly asking for a deep analysis, i hope someone can take it, TBS had an excellent introduction in the genre and i will read his second piece of art today.
UPV-002.gz
abhijit vs Horus on Ruined Passage, PYRA Advanced
(41.8 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
BTW: what was your favourite match of the tournament, if i may ask? :)

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Horus2
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Re: PYRA Mermaid In Distress - The Tournament

Post by Horus2 » December 15th, 2012, 6:42 pm

New secret beta is out! Falsely claimed 111 units have been increased to real 112 by two faeries, plus mapfix and dustfix go in gratis.

There are still things to do in this tournament, as the rewards left untouched.
The_Black_Sword, Mint, Dauntless, noob-killer: please contact with me to specify and claim it!

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