[Complete] Tournament of Champions 3: Results, Hype, Predictions, etc.

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Gallifax
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Round 2

Post by Gallifax »

I won 2:1 over Mythological. Thx krotop btw. Though I had luck on my side more than Mythological. Replays are found

here.

Regards Gallifax

Edit: Now that my flue and headache are a little better some more.

I choose factions all 3 times. It gave us a mirror match on hamlets.Very tough as as this map is just made for dwarfs. The one whos risks and fails usually looses. Luckily Mythological attacked just one turn earlier than I:)

Blitz I choose orcs and Mtyhological got elves with the red mage as leader. That fellow was a real issue for me. He prevented me from stealing villages. Something which I deem vital for orcs. I didnt play too well regardless and Myth deserved the win as he played just better.

3rd game was on sablestone delta. I choose dwarfs again and Mythological got undead. A matchup I really like:) Mythological did well to recruit 3 ghosts to make up for the bad terrain . Made it hard for me. At the end I got lucky and won the match.

But see replays yourself and make a judgment on gameplay:) I personally think I didnt play too well neither of the 3 games.

Ideas suggestions or the like are welcome. Thx

Only thing I feel not too well about is not to have played any 1st round games. Both opponents weren't in a position to play their games and I wasn't able to find another replacement. Pity

Regards Gallifax
Last edited by Gallifax on May 17th, 2007, 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Roman Loyalist
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Post by Roman Loyalist »

in second game vs Becefalus i lost againe :(
Roman_Loyalist - Becephalus 0-2
Miss fortune move from one to one, but to this yanki it came exactly then when it is needed :P

my chances diminished. but may be I will succeed to repeat the exploit of DK ;) :roll:

replay here
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 087#232087

Roman Loyalist
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Post by Roman Loyalist »

in game3 me vs Becefalus i lost againe Sad
Roman_Loyalist - Becephalus 0-3
first strike was mortality
replay here http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 364#232364

thx for a game's & Good luck Becephalus in next round ;)

Zlodzei
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Kollle - Pagan 2nd round ( 1 : 2 )

Post by Zlodzei »

Hi all.

With some luck i won 2 : 1 vs Kollle. :) I should admit that Kollle showed as a truly gentleman when allowed me to reshedule our games. It was quite hard to play it during the week as soon as we have 11 hours gap.

Also, i have lost the replay of our first game that took place in previous Sunday. Probably Kollle has it, i would be grateful if he will post it.

Click here to get replays.
Last edited by Zlodzei on May 21st, 2007, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bast1981
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Post by Bast1981 »

Bast Vs Taurus I lost 2:0 Grr I hate orcs !! :p (had 2 times my worst faction) Replays normally posted by Taurus. Congrats and good luck for the rest of the tourney.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Bast1981 wrote:Bast Vs Taurus I lost 2:0 Grr I hate orcs !! :p (had 2 times my worst faction) Replays normally posted by Taurus. Congrats and good luck for the rest of the tourney.
didnt you beat solitons dwarves with your orcs? :P
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Gallifax
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round 3 game 1 and 2

Post by Gallifax »

Hello ,

Dragonking and I played 2 games so far . Score is 1:1.

As I previous round I picked faction again. Dwarfs for caves of the basilisk and drakes for meteor lake.

1st game was very poor play from me and great play from Dragonking(dwarfs vs loyals). 2nd game was a drakes mirror which I won with luck at the right times.

Enjoyreplays:)

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Doc Paterson
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Re: round 3 game 1 and 2

Post by Doc Paterson »

Gallifax wrote:Hello ,

2nd game was a drakes mirror which I won with luck at the right times.
I know that people like to be modest, but watching their matches, I almost never come to the conclusion that they win "because of luck." That game on Meteor is just another example (in my opinion)- You played really well, and any luck that you had was certainly counterbalanced by bad luck at other times.
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Re: round 3 game 1 and 2

Post by PrinceRepulsive »

Doc Paterson wrote:
Gallifax wrote:Hello ,

2nd game was a drakes mirror which I won with luck at the right times.
I know that people like to be modest, but watching their matches, I almost never come to the conclusion that they win "because of luck." That game on Meteor is just another example (in my opinion)- You played really well, and any luck that you had was certainly counterbalanced by bad luck at other times.
Well put, Doc. Weak players hope for luck. Good players make their luck
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Doc Paterson
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Re: round 3 game 1 and 2

Post by Doc Paterson »

PrinceRepulsive wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote: I know that people like to be modest, but watching their matches, I almost never come to the conclusion that they win "because of luck." That game on Meteor is just another example (in my opinion)- You played really well, and any luck that you had was certainly counterbalanced by bad luck at other times.
Well put, Doc. Weak players hope for luck. Good players make their luck
Well look, I'm not saying that bad luck can't make some games very difficult to win, I was only saying that some people tend to overstate the influence of luck for the sake of modesty. Gallifax played well in that game, and I don't think he should take anything away from himself by saying that it was because of "luck at the right times."
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Konrad II
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Post by Konrad II »

It's true Doc, but for a lot of people, it is uncomfortable to clearly state that you've won by skill, when you can just say yougot lucky ;)

That's when the other player is supposed to say "nahhh you played well... No luck in that"

Etc.
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Wintermute
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Silverhead

Post by Wintermute »

One of the great things about the ToC is that you have lots of players trying as hard as they can while being observed by lots of other players. I think it's a great forum for uncovering unforeseen problems and also for players of all skill levels to learn from the successes and mistakes of others. One of the things that I've learned (the hard way :wink: ) is that you can't win with kills alone - it's all about the Benjamins.

I also came away from the tourney very suspicious of Silverhead Crossing. My experience is not one that I would like to repeat: I was side 2 loyalists (with a shock trooper), against orcs, starting of course at dawn. So right there, playing on 1.2.4 is perhaps the root of the problem, as the shock trooper and the fixed dawn start are already remedied in 1.3.2. Still, I was curious how other players faired on Silverhead, and was surprised by the results. I went to the replays and observed that side 1 won 8/9 of the ToC3 games played on Silverhead, while the one game that bucked the trend was training dummy's orcs over Mythological's loyalists, and mythological then went on to win the other two games in the series.

This isn't enough data to confirm any kind of problem with the map, but It is enough (I think) to warrant a closer look at the overall map balance. What do other people think?
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Re: Silverhead

Post by Cackfiend »

Wintermute wrote: What do other people think?
personally ive had much better results as player 1 on silverhead

i also wish the map was symetrical... 2nd players keeps are in bad positions imo... among other things

in conclusion, i really dislike silverhead and its been one of my least played 1v1 maps for a reason
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Cackfiend wrote:
Wintermute wrote: What do other people think?
personally ive had much better results as player 1 on silverhead

i also wish the map was symetrical... 2nd players keeps are in bad positions imo... among other things

in conclusion, i really dislike silverhead and its been one of my least played 1v1 maps for a reason
I want everyone to read this very carefully:

1. It will never be symetrical. The core concept is to have a balanced map that is not symetrical in any way. Also, I'm sure you know this, but there aren't any symetrical 1v1 maps in the official pack. Only the general overall shapes of a map's layout are loosely symetrical- In other words, seen from a great height, a map would look symetrical.

2. Neither of the previous two TOC tournaments revealed any sort of problem with Silverhead Crossing. My view of the map is that the player one side is more straightforward, and that the player two side takes experience and study to understand. A lot of players played this map for the first time during the tournament, and perhaps failed to realize a few important factors-

a. Player one has greater average distances between their 4 keeps. This is extremely significant, weakens the span of their defense, and enhances player 2's ability to feint in one location and hit hard in another.
b. Player one's southern village pickup is significantly slower than player 2's.
c. Player 2's large keep is much, much easier to defend than Player 1's large keep, as it is shielded by pieces of cave wall that prohibit P1's flanking/trapping ability. Sure, this isn't always a big deal, but it is certainly something to consider, and is often important.
d. It takes Player One longer to reach the center than it takes Player Two. If P2 were to be powered up a little, it would likely include accelerating even further their ability to reach the center/ other keeps, and/or further slowing Player One. On a related note, Player One's initial (largest) keep is placed in such a way that the surrounding terrain slows the general deployment of their units. Like Player Two's enhanced defensive capability, this factor may be more significant in some games, less so in others, but is nevertheless a small piece of the underlying balance that can manifest mid to late game.

3. For almost as long as I can remember, the primary criticism of Silverhead, from good players, was that the player two advantage was too strong. This was largely due to the disparity between their defensive capabilities. Non-defensive oriented units, such as Drakes, are granted other advantages by the structure of the map- the large water barriers, the patches of heavy terrain in the south and certain portions of the north, the ability to hide behind fog in the northeast and northwest, etc etc etc.

4. I'm pretty sure that most of what is being perceived is due to two things- 1.) An oversimplified view of the map, fascillitated by repetitive use of simpler, "defend now/attack now" maps like Charge and Blitz. 2.) The coincidental pairing of better players and the player one side in Round One of TOC3. There are a few notable exceptions to this (it's my opinion that Soliton's match is one such example), but pretty much all of those cases can be explained by mistakes that those players knew they made.

5. This is a very complex map, almost certainly the most complex 1v1 in the official pack. It's easy to make mistakes on a map that you've played only a few times, and the truth is that players often want a simple, straightforward game, like one that they'd get with Charge or Blitz. The most recent 1v1 statistics study that I did revealed that the single largest factor for a map being played at any one given time on the server was how many other players were playing it at the same time. During times when a player chose Silverhead, several others would tend to choose it- Likewise for Charge, Blitz, Den, Hamlets, or any of the others. I myself often don't choose Silverhead because I'm just not in the mood to think that hard, but I do believe that it's a very solid, very rich map that often creates very atypical, very dynamic games. Every map in the pack is a work in progress, and this one is certainly no exception. I'm sure that it's not perfect, but I do think it's close enough to make the disparity close to irrelevant. I continue to make small changes- Right now, for example, I'm attempting to power up Loys a little bit on it, but only for the Loy vs. Undead match.

If anyone wants to discuss these things with me, they should do it in the thread that I designated for such things, the "Multiplayer Map Reader's Digest." Just saying, "this is unbalanced" won't accomplish anything, so if you want to talk about changes, be specific, and be prepared to defend your claims.

:)

* * * * *

I'm copying this discussion over to the Multiplayer Map Reader's Digest. If anyone wants to continue with it, let's do it there.
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Zlodzei
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Taurus - Pagan 3rd round of TOC3

Post by Zlodzei »

Hi all

I was leading 2 : 0 in match against Taurus when the deadline came, so we agreed that i got technical victory. You can find replays here :arrow:.

Regards, Pagan
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