[Complete] Tournament of Champions 2v2 Results and Information

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Haibane
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Post by Haibane »

Well IMHO - there is no problem with timezones and such things, it's about people. If you are joining international tournament, you should count with different timezones and other problems and you should be willing to make some time for it, at least once per week, even if it should be at night. If you are not willing or really not able to do it, don't join.

Just some fixed deadline (without pardon) for each round should be given (14 days it's fine imho). I don't want to be mean (every try also counts), but this one was really organised quite bad, or may I should say it wasn't really organised. From my point of view you are just making timezone problem from bad organisation and poor compliancy of players.

Saying so, I had no problem to help my team anytime when I was asked, if it wasn't in last minute. And I would like point that I'm from Europe and jb + Wintermute from USA, so I even didn't want to make team with jb originally, because of timezones. Right, jb ?

P.S. I'm against timer as always, some games may be slow, but that's not real problem here.
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Post by Noy »

Haibane wrote:Well IMHO - there is no problem with timezones and such things, it's about people. If you are joining international tournament, you should count with different timezones and other problems and you should be willing to make some time for it, at least once per week, even if it should be at night. If you are not willing or really not able to do it, don't join.

Just some fixed deadline (without pardon) for each round should be given (14 days it's fine imho). I don't want to be mean (every try also counts), but this one was really organised quite bad, or may I should say it wasn't really organised. From my point of view you are just making timezone problem from bad organisation and poor compliancy of players.

Saying so, I had no problem to help my team anytime when I was asked, if it wasn't in last minute. And I would like point that I'm from Europe and jb + Wintermute from USA, so I even didn't want to make team with jb originally, because of timezones. Right, jb ?

P.S. I'm against timer as always, some games may be slow, but that's not real problem here.
Honestly haibane, thats might work for you, but its the kind of thinking that made this the mess we see today. Its nice to say that "if you want to play you must make a committment to play 3 games in two weeks" but asking players to fork over 6+ hours across an eight hour time difference (meaning some people would have to play far into the morning) is a bit much even for the most serious player. We're trying to have a tournament that shows the best in wesnoth, not restricted it to people who have nothing better to do every day but to wait around and play the game. Two weeks might have been adequate for the first rounds (where skill disparity was great) but its certainly not for later rounds.

Moreover having only three maps not only brings up questions of RNG influence, but also questions of balance for people who specialize in certain map types. If you have two small maps, and one large one, is that fair for a person who is better at the large map games?

As much as people think this is that easy, it isn't. If it was we wouldn't be sitting here arguing about it now would we? We'd probably be fetting the winner of the entire tournament by now.
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Post by Yogin »

Haibane wrote:Well IMHO - there is no problem with timezones and such things, it's about people. If you are joining international tournament, you should count with different timezones and other problems and you should be willing to make some time for it, at least once per week, even if it should be at night. If you are not willing or really not able to do it, don't join.
Are you kidding me?

(1) People have jobs.
(2) People have to sleep.
(3) People have wives/girlfriends/family.
(4) People need to cook and eat.
(5) a game can take up to 6 hours.

It doesn't take a PhD in math to figure out that scheduling something for up to 4 people with restraints like these isn't the easiest thing. Especially since requirements (1) and (2) tend to make the same time-slots open for people: evenings. Well, evening in Europe isn't the same time as evening in the U.S. Wesnoth players do have lives outside of Wesnoth, you know?
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JW
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Post by JW »

Noy wrote:Moreover having only three maps not only brings up questions of RNG influence, but also questions of balance for people who specialize in certain map types. If you have two small maps, and one large one, is that fair for a person who is better at the large map games?
Is that a problem with the players, the tournament, or the game?
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Post by Yogin »

JW wrote:
Noy wrote:Moreover having only three maps not only brings up questions of RNG influence, but also questions of balance for people who specialize in certain map types. If you have two small maps, and one large one, is that fair for a person who is better at the large map games?
Is that a problem with the players, the tournament, or the game?
(1) and (2), I think. Not (3)
(1) It's a weakness in the player's overall game.
(2) The tournament makes it unfair if it favors one type over the other

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krotop
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Post by krotop »

Noy wrote:Moreover having only three maps not only brings up questions of RNG influence, but also questions of balance for people who specialize in certain map types. If you have two small maps, and one large one, is that fair for a person who is better at the large map games?
The set of 3 maps will be chosen randomly I guess (I like zero's idea). This means that maps will change from each round to each other. So, I suppose that every player will have to adapt to every type of map to increase their odds to reach the top of the tournament.

No offense, but I think that point isn't quite relevant (I'm not talking about the RNG influence, even if I think it's not so much in team games).
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Haibane
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Post by Haibane »

Well Noy, no need for 2 weeks, make it month if you consider it better. I don't mind (Bece probably do), I want just some deadline.
And I wouldn't consider balance matters and so (now), let's make it playable first. It's complicated enought even without such stuff.

But I must admit - sorry, it's not really simple. It could be if everyone would be willing to make some time for it. Otherwise it's probably too complicated and I'm not sure if there is acceptable solution.
It would be really hard to make european, american and mb japanese/chinese parts to fulfil everyone's time requests. What's worse, it would be quite disappointing for me if I won't be able to lose against Becephalus fe. It may be good idea to build teams from players in same timezone at least, but that's ungly restriction as well. And that's just about timezones, the worst is that even so, there would be no warranty that even people in same timezone would be able to complete their round.
Do you really want to solve it all with some clever idea ? I wish you good luck. May there is really some and if someone will be able to find it, it would be really nice. But if everyone would be willing to sacrifice himself just a little, it would be much easier :roll:
Yogin wrote: Are you kidding me?

(1) People have jobs.
(2) People have to sleep.
(3) People have wives/girlfriends/family.
(4) People need to cook and eat.
(5) a game can take up to 6 hours.
Nah, same feeling here. Do you think that I don't need sleep, eat or work ? Really ?
Or do you think that we were playing as was convenient for me when I'm just substitude player ? No, we usually started about my midnight and that's not my favorite time for Wesnoth (but it's probably still too early for jb and WM, they sure wanted to make it convenient for me as much as was possible, that's called compromise).

Don't even try to say such things to me, seriously. May I'm weird, but when I enter some tournament or even when I agree to play some game with more people, I do everything to keep my part to not spoil fun for others, no matter how hard is it. If I know that I'm not able to do it, I'm not entering at first place. If there is something which I don't expect, I give up with apologize. And no, I'm not proud about myself, I consider this as normal and polite. Dunno if it's just me.
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Post by Agent Jack Bauer »

Haibane wrote: I do everything to keep my part to not spoil fun for others, no matter how hard is it. If I know that I'm not able to do it, I'm not entering at first place.
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Yogin
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Post by Yogin »

Haibane wrote:But if everyone would be willing to sacrifice himself just a little, it would be much easier :roll:
...
No, we usually started about my midnight and that's not my favorite time for Wesnoth.

... when I enter some tournament or even when I agree to play some game with more people, I do everything to keep my part to not spoil fun for others, no matter how hard is it. If I know that I'm not able to do it, I'm not entering at first place. If there is something which I don't expect, I give up with apologize. And no, I'm not proud about myself, I consider this as normal and polite. Dunno if it's just me.
Well, I applaud you for making the effort and taking the pains you do in order to complete your obligation. The whole point with the timezone brackets is so that other people who aren't as willing to play from midnight till 6am can participate in the tournament.

Like it or not, time zones was one of the big reasons this tourney seemed to fail. If you polled the participants in this tourney, I seriously doubt many are willing, like you, to commit to time slots such as midnight to 6am in order to compete.

Thus, to accomodate other players, and actually have a chance for the tourney to work, I would still support a timezone (or freetime for those who work night shifts) bracketed tournament. And if you really want to get beat by Becephalus, then you wait till the intra-region finals. If Bec or you doesn't make it that far, then you get the pleasure of losing to someone who beat Bec, or vice versa.
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Haibane
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Post by Haibane »

Yeah, I guess you are right Yogin. I'm weird (and mb idealist) after all. Don't mind me than and go ahead with any working solution.

But even if it could be just my pesimism, I'm really curious how easy will be to get same number of players from each timezone, willing to play at same time. Somewhat I don't believe that timezones are only serious problem, mb it's my own experience with our opponents (on the other side, I had no problem with my teammates) ? Well, let's try and we will see.

Anyway, I may pass on such divided tournament. I'm not sure if I have some real objective reason (Bece was just example), but I still don't like this idea. Mainly because it creates barriers among people istead of breaking them. I just love freedom to play with anyone, without any borders.
Ah yes, I know, here I go again, weirdo and idealist. As I said, don't mind me, I'm just feeling like I should say it. It's not important if I will play, not for me and sure not for others.

Good luck.
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Post by Mythological »

Although the debate on the last 3-4 pages of the thread is generally useful ( it contains good ideas on how to better organize the next 2v2 tournaments ), it doesn't help about the problem in hand - what to do with the tournament in progress ?

I want to ask every one of of the remaining participants - that is zero1, PhD, Sombra, Nordmann, khiM, jb, Wintemute, Haibane, Sargy, Tux, Taurus and JW - are you still interested in playing in this tournament and do you want it to continue or not ?

My answer is yes - I am willing to put the extra effort and I would like this to keep going and have a decent ending, instead of falling apart. One of the reasons is to make a good example/experience for the future.

And I still think that someone should be in charge, regardless if it is chosen by the others, self-appointed or selected because he's deserving. Rolling dice might work for choosing the maps but it wont work for everything. And no, even if power is tempting, I dont want to be in charge myself - I am not up to it - it should be one of the MP developers, or if not one of them, then one of the forum regulars who has also played a lot of multiplayer.
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Post by Nordmann »

I agree...we should not let it end this way ....so give us the maps and we will fight. With - without timer big map, small map everything will be fine for me.

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Haibane
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Post by Haibane »

Hmm, either way is fine with me, but it doesn't really depend on me - jb and WM are important. And I have feeling that they had enought of this ... well, I don't want to speak for them, let's wait for their own words.
I just don't want another endless and hopeless waiting for next game.
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Post by PhD »

Mythological wrote:..I want to ask every one of of the remaining participants - that is zero1, PhD, Sombra, Nordmann, khiM, jb, Wintemute, Haibane, Sargy, Tux, Taurus and JW - are you still interested in playing in this tournament and do you want it to continue or not ?

My answer is yes...
My answer same - yes.
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Post by Sombra »

I would like to fight on. Unfortunately I will be away for two weeks starting next weekend. But I could find a replacement for me if we beat Zero and Phd...this week...
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