Dunefolk translation

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Xalzar
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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » May 10th, 2018, 2:48 pm

skeptical_troll wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 10:45 am
I don't know if something is going on behind the curtains, in which case I'll really grateful if somebody posts updates here when the translation is finalized.
Maybe we should open a new topic about this... :hmm:
Nothing definitive, but we are indeed discussing the matter in the Italian Forum (see expecially last page), but the low activity is lengthening the process. It's probably better to import the discussion in this forum at this point if we want something done. :lol:

If you want, we can compare the possible translations! ;)

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Kylix
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Kylix » May 29th, 2018, 3:15 pm

I was thinking about these translations:

Dune Herbalist = Erborista
Dune Apothecary = Farmacista

Dune Soldier = Soldato
Dune Swordsman = Spadaccino del deserto
Dune Blademaster = Maestro delle lame
Dune Spearguard = Guardiano lanciere
Dune Spearmaster = Maestro della lancia

Dune Burner = Bruciatore
Dune Scorcher = Arrostitore
Dune Firetrooper = Vigile del fuoco

Dune Piercer = Perforatore
Dune Sunderer = Scissore
Dune Cataphract = Catafratto

Dune Rider = Fantino
Dune Raider = Bandito del deserto
Dune Marauder = Predone
Dune Swiftrider = Cavaliere veloce
Dune Windrider = Cavaliere del vento

Dune Rover = Vagabondo
Dune Skirmisher = Schermagliatore
Dune Harrier = Saccheggiatore
Dune Explorer = Esploratore
Dune Ranger = Guardia del deserto

Dune Warmaster = Maestro della guerra

I added "desert" on some units to not confuse them with human ones and I thought the Dunefolk race should be translated as "Popolo del deserto", since I think "Popolo delle dune" doesn't sound good.

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Xalzar
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » May 29th, 2018, 9:33 pm

Kylix wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 3:15 pm
I was thinking about these translations:
...
I added "desert" on some units to not confuse them with human ones and I thought the Dunefolk race should be translated as "Popolo del deserto", since I think "Popolo delle dune" doesn't sound good.
As you know we were talking in the Italian Forum about this but for the time being yeah, it's better to continue here.

My suggestions put near yours (mine // yours), with commentary on yours:
Lanciafiamme delle Dune // Bruciatore -> yours is possible, I'd prefer mine only because it names its weapon
Infiammatore delle Dune // Arrostitore -> it seems a bit silly pronouncing it
Inceneritore delle Dune/Maestro delle Fiamme/del Fuoco // Vigile del Fuoco -> you know that firefighters are not real fighters and would use anything but fire in their profession? (generally)
Erbalista // Erborista -> I don't mind either, maybe at this point I even prefer yours
Apotecario/Alchimista/Speziale // Farmacista -> many people don't like this translation
Lanciere delle Dune // Perforatore -> too literal
Cavaliere d'Assalto // Scissore -> I don't think it exist in Italian
Catafratto
Razziatore delle Dune // Bandito del Deserto -> I slightly prefer mine, but yours is good
Predone delle Dune
Ramingo delle Dune // Vagabondo -> in my opinion it has a slightly derogative accent into it that I wanted to avoid
Esploratore delle Dune
Ranger delle Dune // Guardia -> I can probably see where you were going with this, and I propose "Custode" ("Ranger" though is valid because is coherent with other units)
Incursore delle Dune // Schermagliatore -> identical to the Fencer
Invasore delle Dune // Saccheggiatore -> as with the one before, I wanted to explain better their role in the Dunefolk army
Soldato delle Dune
Spadaccino delle Dune
Maestro di Spada // Maestro delle Lame -> identical to the Drake Blademaster, and they have different weapons so I want to differentiate
Guardia delle Dune // Guardiano Lanciere -> good, I chose "Guardia" to not repeat the translation of Dwarven Guard
Maestro di Lancia
Maestro di Guerra
Cavalcadune // Fantino -> no, beacuse it indicates the rider of a horse for sport
Cavalcacelere // Cavaliere veloce -> too descriptive
Cavalcavento // Cavaliere del vento -> too boring?

About the "Dune" part, I like "delle Dune" because it's short..."del Deserto" is absolutely valid too though.
Then, as you probably know, the translation "Beduino" was considered for "Dunefolk/Dune". I'm not too fond of it, but it's worth remembering.

Finally: do you think we can talk in Italian here for the next posts? Honest question! :mrgreen:

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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Kylix » May 30th, 2018, 6:47 am

Xalzar wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 9:33 pm
Kylix wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 3:15 pm
I was thinking about these translations:
...
I added "desert" on some units to not confuse them with human ones and I thought the Dunefolk race should be translated as "Popolo del deserto", since I think "Popolo delle dune" doesn't sound good.
As you know we were talking in the Italian Forum about this but for the time being yeah, it's better to continue here.

My suggestions put near yours (mine // yours), with commentary on yours:
Lanciafiamme delle Dune // Bruciatore -> yours is possible, I'd prefer mine only because it names its weapon
Infiammatore delle Dune // Arrostitore -> it seems a bit silly pronouncing it
In effetti, non sapevo come tradurlo...[/quote]
Inceneritore delle Dune/Maestro delle Fiamme/del Fuoco // Vigile del Fuoco -> you know that firefighters are not real fighters and would use anything but fire in their profession? (generally)
[/quote]Lo so bene, la traduzione più fedele era quella, e poi è un controsenso che sembra essere fatto apposta :mrgreen: [/quote]
Erbalista // Erborista -> I don't mind either, maybe at this point I even prefer yours
[/quote]'Erbalista' per un italiano suona malissimo, fa tanto WoW, 'Erborista' invece suona meglio, essendo un vocabolo italiano.[/quote]
Apotecario/Alchimista/Speziale // Farmacista -> many people don't like this translation
[/quote]Lo so, fa pensare al titolare della farmacia. Apotecario è un termine di altri tempi, ormai caduto in disuso. Forse è meglio puntare su 'Alchimista'.[/quote]
Lanciere delle Dune // Perforatore -> too literal
Cavaliere d'Assalto // Scissore -> I don't think it exist in Italian
[/quote]To sunder significa scindere/separare. 'Separatore' secondo me suonava male, così ho optato per 'Scissore'.[/quote]
Catafratto
Razziatore delle Dune // Bandito del Deserto -> I slightly prefer mine, but yours is good
Predone delle Dune
Ramingo delle Dune // Vagabondo -> in my opinion it has a slightly derogative accent into it that I wanted to avoid
[/quote]'Ramingo' è terrificante, se non ti piace 'Vagabondo', optiamo per 'Girovago'.
Esploratore delle Dune
Ranger delle Dune // Guardia -> I can probably see where you were going with this, and I propose "Custode" ("Ranger" though is valid because is coherent with other units)
[/quote]Oppure 'Ranger del deserto/delle dune', per non confonderlo col ranger fuorilegge.[/quote]
Incursore delle Dune // Schermagliatore -> identical to the Fencer
[/quote]'Fencer' nella versione italiana è 'Schermitore' (e tra l'altro si scrive schermidore), nessuna unità italiana si chiama in quel modo.[/quote]
Invasore delle Dune // Saccheggiatore -> as with the one before, I wanted to explain better their role in the Dunefolk army
Soldato delle Dune
Spadaccino delle Dune
Maestro di Spada // Maestro delle Lame -> identical to the Drake Blademaster, and they have different weapons so I want to differentiate
[/quote]Però non ha 'drago' nel nome.[/quote]
Guardia delle Dune // Guardiano Lanciere -> good, I chose "Guardia" to not repeat the translation of Dwarven Guard
[/quote]No, quello è 'Dwarvish Thunderer/Thunderguard/Dragonguard', in italiano 'Nano tonante/guardia del tuono/guardia del drago'.[/quote]
Maestro di Lancia
Maestro di Guerra
Cavalcadune // Fantino -> no, beacuse it indicates the rider of a horse for sport
Cavalcacelere // Cavaliere veloce -> too descriptive
Cavalcavento // Cavaliere del vento -> too boring?

About the "Dune" part, I like "delle Dune" because it's short..."del Deserto" is absolutely valid too though.
Then, as you probably know, the translation "Beduino" was considered for "Dunefolk/Dune". I'm not too fond of it, but it's worth remembering.

Finally: do you think we can talk in Italian here for the next posts? Honest question! :mrgreen:

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Xalzar
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » June 4th, 2018, 10:11 am

Before we advance in the discussion, I want to ask the knowledgeable gentlemen of the forum:

is "Beduino" (="Beduin") a viable translation for the Dunefolk?

Preferences aside, I sincerely don't know if it is ammissible. Studying the term meaning I've come to understand that it's vague enough to not identify a single real population, but maybe there are other problems. The real question maybe is: how much can we take from reality? And how much from present reality?

EDIT:
Other question: how does the Herbalist and Apothecary medicine work? Is it exclusively plant-based? Is there chirurgy? Mineral preparations? Animal extracts?
The answer to these questions could really help the translation.

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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » June 10th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Given the name "herbalist" I'd presume it to be primarily plant-based, but give that they live in the desert, I expect they'll probably use mineral and animal ingredients too. No idea on the chirurgy.

Inasfar as I can understand Italian (I've studied French, Spanish, and Latin, but not Italian), the names proposed by Kylix seem decent.

Regarding the question of Bedouin, I think the problem with that is that it evokes a real group of people. It's an appropriate term for the dunefolk, but using the term might give the impression that Dunefolk are intended to be an accurate in-game representation of Bedouins.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
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Xalzar
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » June 10th, 2018, 5:03 pm

Thank you for your kind response! :D
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 4:04 pm
Given the name "herbalist" I'd presume it to be primarily plant-based, but give that they live in the desert, I expect they'll probably use mineral and animal ingredients too. No idea on the chirurgy.
I was asking since there is a proposed translation which suggests a bit of chirurgy too. Maybe it's better to be conservative and reject that proposal then.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 4:04 pm
Inasfar as I can understand Italian (I've studied French, Spanish, and Latin, but not Italian), the names proposed by Kylix seem decent.
True; right now I'm juggling between two forums to find a compromise on the translation though! :lol:
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 4:04 pm
Regarding the question of Bedouin, I think the problem with that is that it evokes a real group of people. It's an appropriate term for the dunefolk, but using the term might give the impression that Dunefolk are intended to be an accurate in-game representation of Bedouins.
I agree. In the meantime other people spoke against it in the Italian Forum, so we'll try another path.

I'll update shortly. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to add anything to the matter (translation and/or clarification on unit background) it's welcome to do so. ;)

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Antro
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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » June 23rd, 2018, 3:20 pm

Actual translations, extracted from https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline ... nline.html:
skeptical_troll wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 10:45 am
Rover -> Sentinella
Rover -> Vagabondo
Explorer -> Esploratore
Explorer -> Razziatore
Ranger -> Ricognitore
Ranger -> Ranger :whistle:
Swiftrider -> Cavalleggero (I'm not very happy about this one)
Swiftrider -> Tiratore
Herbalist -> erborista
Herbalist -> erborista :)
Dune Soldier -> Soldato delle Sabbie
Soldier -> Guerriero

Alle the units are follower by "suffix" "delle Dune"
When talking about the nation I used the expression 'Città del Sud/Meridione', as from the description the dunefolk are organized in semi-independent city states.
I would prefer the generic "delle Dune", but this is your choice. Generally speaking, IMHO, we could use whatever expression we like in generic discussion i.e. if a dwarf say something about this race, should we assume that is use the correct and coherent term or he can use whatever he likes ?
On the other side, in a more general context, we should use a coherent and uniform approach
When generically indicating the region where they lived I used simply 'il Sud/ il Meridione', and they are alternatively addressed as 'gente/popolo del deserto/sud/sabbie'.
Let me know if there are news on this front. Thanks!
Same consideration as in previous comment.

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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » June 23rd, 2018, 10:44 pm

Antro wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 3:20 pm
Actual translations, extracted from https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline ... nline.html:
Uhm in 1.14.0 there were no translations, and I've missed the memo that in the new version they were added. Who decided what to include? :shock:

I mean, there are even some translations which have never been proposed in there... And just in a couple of days I was going to wrap up the matter (I left two weeks for people to intervene). :doh:

My observations:
-"Uomini delle Dune" is a bit sexist (I joke but not too much :whistle: ), "Popolo delle Dune" was in the end what we settled on;
-apparently someone has decided to translate the Dunerider line with the "archery" option we thought of (RIP my quickness-oriented, "Cavalcadune" proposal then :cry: ), but without the newly proposed "Sagittario delle Dune" for the level 2, and there's an error in the Windrider translation: it should be "Saettatore delle Dune", not "Saettatori";
-I've never seen "Cacciatore" for the alternative level 2, instead everyone agreed on "Razziatore"...where does it come from?
-"Erborista" is good but "Apotecario" was deemed "not Italian" by the community, which preferred "Alchimista" or "Farmacista";
-I don't like "Guerriero" for a unit which is uniquely named "Soldier" instead of the common "Warrior". We should keep the difference in Italian: "Soldato" is a more regimented fighter than a warrior.
-"Difensore" and "Veterano" were not in the proposed options but they're good (the majority wanted "Guardia" and "Spadaccino") - maybe "Difensore" could be a bit tricky because the unit has not the "difensore" ability the name could suggest- same for "Condottiero" ("Ma(e)stro di Guerra" and "Signore della Guerra" were our proposals);
-we've landed on the solution "Inceneritore" -> "Flammiere" -> "Piromane" for the Burner line, the current translation is not convincing anyway;
-"Squartatore" in abysmal, it doesn't make sense with the weapon used, which pierces. Counter-offer: "Cavaliere Pesante/d'Assalto";
-"Vagabondo" in my opinion doesn't convey the right idea for the unit - it is not lost, wandering without destination in the desert, it's a scout of sorts and an adventurer - "Ramingo", "Errante", "Viandante", "Nomade" are similar but better;
-"Assaltatore" is good, we thought of "Invasore";
-"Razziatore is out of place, it doesn't translate "Explorer" correctly: it's better to use the simple, literal term "Esploratore".

How was our discussion completely skipped in the decision process? :hmm:
Before the next version we need to sort some things, many of these translations cannot stay. :augh:

Thanks for your report Antro, I've completely missed the news. :oops:

EDIT: I see that in the previous post all the quotes are from the last post of the previous page: maybe someone didn't see that this topic has a second page! :lol:

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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » June 24th, 2018, 10:59 am

Xalzar wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 10:44 pm
Antro wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 3:20 pm
Actual translations, extracted from https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline ... nline.html:
Uhm in 1.14.0 there were no translations, and I've missed the memo that in the new version they were added. Who decided what to include? :shock:

I mean, there are even some translations which have never been proposed in there... And just in a couple of days I was going to wrap up the matter (I left two weeks for people to intervene). :doh:
Yes, a lot of discussion, a lot of proposals... but NOBODY sent nothing from the community. If you want to submit something to be reviewed and included, you are more than welcome. We are full of good suggestion and wondeful brand new names, but nobody submit a .po to be merged and reviewed. Shortly: I made all the job by myself, trying to keep all the suggestions at my best, checking the consistency and reviewing. And this includes the localization of the images, too...
How was our discussion completely skipped in the decision process? :hmm:
Before the next version we need to sort some things, many of these translations cannot stay. :augh:
Thanks for your report Antro, I've completely missed the news. :oops:
As already said, you are more than welcome: send me your .po update accodingly and I'll be happy to review, merge and submit for the next release

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Xalzar
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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » June 24th, 2018, 2:22 pm

Antro wrote:
June 24th, 2018, 10:59 am
Yes, a lot of discussion, a lot of proposals... but NOBODY sent nothing from the community. If you want to submit something to be reviewed and included, you are more than welcome. We are full of good suggestion and wondeful brand new names, but nobody submit a .po to be merged and reviewed. Shortly: I made all the job by myself, trying to keep all the suggestions at my best, checking the consistency and reviewing. And this includes the localization of the images, too...

As already said, you are more than welcome: send me your .po update accodingly and I'll be happy to review, merge and submit for the next release
There's no reason for being irritated. It's just that I also did a bit of work on this, and apparently only a few people cared. :augh:
I've nothing to say but thank you for your interest and work in submitting a .po, but why not use the names the community agreed upon? You only made things more difficult for you, forcing yourself to find names when they were already there. You could have contributed together with everyone else. :doh:
You opened this topic but for then you disappeared for almost two months, how can people know you're silently working on the translation in the meantime? :hmm:

I've never learned how .po works, and I've got no time right now to learn it. So I've no right to impose anything and you have all the reasons to ignore all other contributions, being mine or from the community.
But I cannot avoid to post a poll or something on the Italian Forum to see which version the community prefers. They need to be informed about this.

EDIT: for Antro and whomever wants to be updated, this matter will be now discussed in the Wesnoth Italian Forum in this topic.

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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » June 24th, 2018, 5:09 pm

Xalzar wrote:
June 24th, 2018, 2:22 pm
There's no reason for being irritated. It's just that I also did a bit of work on this, and apparently for naught. :augh:
I've nothing to say but thank you for your interest and work in submitting a .po, but why not use the names the community agreed upon? You only made things more difficult for you, forcing yourself to find names when they were already there. :doh:
You opened this topic but for then you disappeared for almost two months, how can people know you're silently working on the translation in the meantime? :hmm:

I've never learned how .po works, and I've got no time right now to learn it. So I've no right to impose anything and you have all the reasons to ignore all other contributions, mine or from the community.
But then I'll post a poll or something on the Italian Forum to see which version the community prefers. I owe them. Then perhaps I'll abandon all involvement in the translation process, I'll leave that to the experts.
I'm not irritated, I'm :annoyed:
Actually, there is only one active translator in the italian forum (Bonta-Kun), apart from me, and he now has no time to dedicate to the game translation, AFAIK. However, any contribution is welcome. As already said, since no contribution landed in my e-mail, I made my best to summarize the ideas and finalize the italian translation. If any one has something to submit, drop an e-mail and I'll take into account for the next release.

P.S: However, I opened this topic to find and agree on a translation of "Dunefolk", not for italian translation of the units... Topic were opened here just because the translation could involve also other languages, not only italian.

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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » June 24th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Antro wrote:
June 24th, 2018, 5:09 pm
I'm not irritated, I'm :annoyed:
Actually, there is only one active translator in the italian forum (Bonta-Kun), apart from me, and he now has no time to dedicate to the game translation, AFAIK. However, any contribution is welcome. As already said, since no contribution landed in my e-mail, I made my best to summarize the ideas and finalize the italian translation. If any one has something to submit, drop an e-mail and I'll take into account for the next release.

P.S: However, I opened this topic to find and agree on a translation of "Dunefolk", not for italian translation of the units... Topic were opened here just because the translation could involve also other languages, not only italian.
Nobody knew that we needed to send an e-mail to you. It seems this is a case of miscommunication: I was under the impression to be quite alone in the translation process, with only a few other contributors. For what we knew, you could have been too busy to participate in the discussion during this months.

About this topic: since the start it has been colonized by us Italians, and the topic of discussion expanded.

So, to clarify: next step, we send you an e-mail with our proposals? In the end we may even replace just a couple of your choices (it depends on the community response), I was a bit harsh at the start because I was honestly surprised by the existence of a translation in the first place, then by the absence of popular namings from the community, and finally by the unknow identity of the author who did all of this under our noses.

So don't be too annoyed: in the end, your work is appreciated, but your past silence created this situation. No hard feelings. ;)

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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Kylix » July 23rd, 2018, 2:52 pm

The next step is to introduce new campaigns with Khalifate faction (and, why not, add 4 scenarios to TOTB)/Il prossimo step sarà introdurre nuove campagne con la fazione del Califfato (e, perché no, aggiungere 4 scenari a RDDF).

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