Dunefolk translation

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Antro
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Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » April 17th, 2018, 8:49 pm

Hi gents!

I would like to share with you a small idea. Dealing wiht the italian translation of "dunefolk" race and the new dunefolk units, my sci/fi background reminded my about Frank Herbert's Dune books. At first, the idea was to call the race "Arrakis", like the true name of the Dune planet, then I dreamed about Fremen, like the inhabitants of the planet itself. And finally, since
The Fremen had come to the planet thousands of years before the events of the novel as the Zensunni Wanderers
what do you think about Zensunni as name for the new race?

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shadowm
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by shadowm » April 17th, 2018, 9:08 pm

You really shouldn’t be using names from other IPs in translations.
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GunChleoc
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by GunChleoc » April 20th, 2018, 7:34 am

I went for "sand" in my translation, because "dune" doesn't work - just wanted to mention that in case "dune" is a problem for your language.

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skeptical_troll
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by skeptical_troll » April 20th, 2018, 10:56 am

Aside from copyright issues, I find 'Zensunni' quite uninformative, and it will feel weird also for those who know those books (I personally don't). The whole renaming process was motivated by the wish of making names more understandable than the arabian-sounding versions. What is wrong with the literal translation like 'popolo/abitanti/civiltà delle dune/sabbie/deserto' ?

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Antro
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » April 21st, 2018, 10:59 am

skeptical_troll wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 10:56 am
Aside from copyright issues, I find 'Zensunni' quite uninformative, and it will feel weird also for those who know those books (I personally don't). The whole renaming process was motivated by the wish of making names more understandable than the arabian-sounding versions. What is wrong with the literal translation like 'popolo/abitanti/civiltà delle dune/sabbie/deserto' ?
About copyright... chokobone remind me something... ;) I don't know if all the races/names of the cited books are under copyright, but I'm quite sure that "Dune" is under copyright. We could use "Zenshia", for example, or "Zen-sun", "Zen-sand" ...

about uninformation: there are player that don't know what is a wose, a wraight, a nightshade, a ghoul, a gaunt, etc. etc... There is the game to be played and the manual/help to be read... I can agree that isn't self-explaining but this is a plus or a minus? We could extend the discussion about the translation merfolk=nereidi (higly misleading shouldn't be popolo/abitanti/civiltà delle acque/mari ? ;) ), drake=drago, the usage of Naga from Hindu/buddhist mythology, etc. etc.

About literal translation: there is nothing wrong, but if I remember correct, translator were encourage to use archaic terms and avoid literal translation

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Xalzar
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » April 21st, 2018, 1:42 pm

Antro wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 10:59 am
I don't know if all the races/names of the cited books are under copyright, but I'm quite sure that "Dune" is under copyright. We could use "Zenshia", for example, or "Zen-sun", "Zen-sand" ...
About literal translation: there is nothing wrong, but if I remember correct, translator were encourage to use archaic terms and avoid literal translation
I agree that if we could find a better new name, invented from scratch, we should use that. Just I don't understand why we should focus on trying to reference the "Dune" saga, since it correlates to the Dunefolk only in name.
I think it could be more interesting if we're able to find a connection to Middle-Eastern mythology or a good-sounding brand new name.

"Zen-X" gives me Far-Eastern vibes though... :hmm:

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zepko
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by zepko » April 21st, 2018, 4:51 pm

Antro wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 10:59 am
skeptical_troll wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 10:56 am
Aside from copyright issues, I find 'Zensunni' quite uninformative, and it will feel weird also for those who know those books (I personally don't). The whole renaming process was motivated by the wish of making names more understandable than the arabian-sounding versions. What is wrong with the literal translation like 'popolo/abitanti/civiltà delle dune/sabbie/deserto' ?
About copyright... chokobone remind me something... ;) I don't know if all the races/names of the cited books are under copyright, but I'm quite sure that "Dune" is under copyright. We could use "Zenshia", for example, or "Zen-sun", "Zen-sand" ...

about uninformation: there are player that don't know what is a wose, a wraight, a nightshade, a ghoul, a gaunt, etc. etc... There is the game to be played and the manual/help to be read... I can agree that isn't self-explaining but this is a plus or a minus? We could extend the discussion about the translation merfolk=nereidi (higly misleading shouldn't be popolo/abitanti/civiltà delle acque/mari ? ;) ), drake=drago, the usage of Naga from Hindu/buddhist mythology, etc. etc.

About literal translation: there is nothing wrong, but if I remember correct, translator were encourage to use archaic terms and avoid literal translation
I'm quite sure that "Dune" is a common word of the English dictionary, so it is freely usable ;)
Anyway, I just replied you on the Italian forum, but I'll do it also here. "Zenshia" has the same (lack of) meaning problem as "Zensunni".
The Dunefolk units are all classified in game as "Dunefolk Human". I would simply translate it as "Uomini delle dune", where dune is not a proper name, but rather an attribute of their civilization.
Sure, translators should, if it makes sense, avoid literal translations whenever possible. But in this case I feel that the literal translation is the best solution (unless, of course, someone comes up with an invented name which captures the essence of their civilization).

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Antro
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » April 21st, 2018, 5:55 pm

Xalzar wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 1:42 pm

I agree that if we could find a better new name, invented from scratch, we should use that. Just I don't understand why we should focus on trying to reference the "Dune" saga, since it correlates to the Dunefolk only in name.
I think it could be more interesting if we're able to find a connection to Middle-Eastern mythology or a good-sounding brand new name.

"Zen-X" gives me Far-Eastern vibes though... :hmm:
Agree 101%. No need to focus on the saga, it was only my trip of good, old, sci-fi/fantasy fan...

Some sparse idea/start point for a brand new name: of course, if we can find a new "common" name, theer is no need of translation...
  • The word 'desert' in arabic sound like "Bariya";
  • Arabic name of Sahara is Rubʿ al-Khālī ( literally "The Empty Quarter" ): in arabic sound like "alrubue alkhaliu";
  • The land of Punt: a mythological realm in the Southern Red Sea region in egypt
  • Iram of the Pillars (Arabic: إرَم ذات العماد‎, Iram dhāt al-ʿimād), also called "Aram", "Irum", "Irem", "Erum", or the "City of the tent poles," is a lost city, region or tribe mentioned in the Qur'an; it is also known as "Ubar" and the inhabitans are "Iobaritae"
  • Deshret, ancient egyptian word for "desert"
  • The god of desert is Seth...
  • Ash, Egyptian god protector of the oasis
  • Amurru / Martu, the sumerian god of storm
  • Nasr is the south Arabian god of the deep desert

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skeptical_troll
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by skeptical_troll » April 22nd, 2018, 5:46 pm

The problem with proper/new names is that they should be somehow related to the lore (like 'Knalgan alliance'), but there isn't an established lore for the dunefolk, except a few fundamental facts. I'd avoid something completely arbitrary. Possible hooks are their geographical location, or their political organization. I'm not familiar with the current italian translation of Wesnoth, but a Google search shows me that the southern desert is translated as 'Deserto di Cenere', so something like 'Cinerei/Ceneriani' could be the equivalent of 'Sahariani'. It doesn't sound great though. Perhaps we can use one of the southern city names mentioned in Wesnoth geography? The most proper italian word to denote an inhabitant of the desert is probably 'beduino', but it has a slight negative connotation and only refers to nomadic civilizations. An adjective like 'nomade' could still be used for the liminal units, which according to the description are the nomadic part of the dunefolk society. 'Levantino' would be an archaic work to indicate people from the middle-east, but in this case it doesn't work because the Dunefolk live in the south rather than the east, but 'del sud' or a synonym could do.

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Antro
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Antro » April 27th, 2018, 6:49 pm

Can we consider Saracen ?

From wikipedia

Saracen was a term widely used among Christian writers in Europe during the Middle Ages. The term's meaning evolved during its history. In the early centuries of the Common Era, Greek and Latin writings used this term to refer to the people who lived in desert areas in and near the Roman province of Arabia Petraea, and who were specifically distinguished from others as a people known as Arabs. In Europe during the Early Middle Ages, the term came to be associated with tribes of Arabia as well.

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Xalzar
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by Xalzar » April 28th, 2018, 1:24 pm

Antro wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 6:49 pm
Can we consider Saracen ?

From wikipedia

Saracen was a term widely used among Christian writers in Europe during the Middle Ages. The term's meaning evolved during its history. In the early centuries of the Common Era, Greek and Latin writings used this term to refer to the people who lived in desert areas in and near the Roman province of Arabia Petraea, and who were specifically distinguished from others as a people known as Arabs. In Europe during the Early Middle Ages, the term came to be associated with tribes of Arabia as well.
I responded more thoroughly in the Italian Forum, but the gist is that the faction is already quite inspired from reality, and if we gave them a real-world name, even if it's a bit vague and not precise as it is, it may identify the fictional faction too much with real people. :hmm:
I want to see then if we could dare to put them in a bad light in whatever campaign... :doh:

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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by RolfDhew » April 30th, 2018, 7:49 am

True, I would think we would want to keep politics and religion out of the game, lest it push away players, as it is the Dunefolk were obviously inspired by muslims Persia and nomadic nations, however with the new name "Dunefolk" it identifies less so

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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by RolfDhew » April 30th, 2018, 7:57 am

What about sacae?


Other sound changes gave Sogdia. The form reflected in Old Persian: Sakā, Greek: Σάκαι; Latin: Sacae, Sanskrit: शक Śaka comes from an Iranian verbal root sak-, "go, roam" and thus means "nomad".[34] (Wikipedia Scytians article)

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GunChleoc
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Re: Dunefolk translation

Post by GunChleoc » April 30th, 2018, 8:37 am

There was a long discussion in the Ideas forum about the new name, and all kinds of real-world names were suggested an decided against. So, better keep it vague in the translations too.

https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=47643

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skeptical_troll
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Re: Italian Dunefolk translation

Post by skeptical_troll » May 10th, 2018, 10:45 am

So I recently fixed the italian translation of Return from the Abyss in 1.14 and had to make some assumptions regarding dunefolk-related words. I don't know if something is going on behind the curtains, in which case I'll really grateful if somebody posts updates here when the translation is finalized.

In case you find it useful, this is some translations I adopted:
Rover -> Sentinella
Explorer -> Esploratore
Ranger -> Ricognitore
Swiftrider -> Cavalleggero (I'm not very happy about this one)
Herbalist -> erborista
Dune Soldier -> Soldato delle Sabbie

When talking about the nation I used the expression 'Città del Sud/Meridione', as from the description the dunefolk are organized in semi-independent city states. When generically indicating the region where they lived I used simply 'il Sud/ il Meridione', and they are alternatively addressed as 'gente/popolo del deserto/sud/sabbie'.
Let me know if there are news on this front. Thanks!

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