Scenario 5: Blackwater

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Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by Content Feedback » May 13th, 2017, 10:36 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?
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jeremybauerle
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by jeremybauerle » June 22nd, 2017, 7:22 pm

(1) Difficulty level & Version?
  • Corrupt (Challenging) 1.13.8
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
  • 6
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
  • I like the exchange between the Knight leader and the ship's captain, but Ardonna is just standing there doing/saying nothing.
  • It seems odd that the ship's captain is Loyal, but he's selling out Ardonna to the Knight.
  • The ghost at the end is intriguing.
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
  • It was difficult to push the attack since your units are always left vulnerable in the water and sand... but so are the enemy units. Maybe I should have tried taking a group of submerging skeletons north or south to surround the enemy, but it seemed like that would take too much time and leave Ardonna poorly defended.
  • I had two Level 2 archers, and that helped a lot. Leadership on the new captain unit probably means that Level 1 archers would have been sufficient. Though I really wasn't fearful of horse units... the mages and the swordsmen, though, were trouble.
  • Almost no healing options: a couple safe water villages for my one Level 1 bat, and a dangerous water village by the south dock.
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
  • 7.5. It's a solid challenge with an interesting starting recruitment zone.
(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?
  • During the opening dialogue, I might be funnier if Ardonna is whispering for the captain to shut up, but the memory of his friendship with the Knight is allowing him just enough autonomy to reply honestly.
  • It might be interesting to have the ghost appear in the opening dialogue, not identifying itself, just watching. Possibly more suspenseful that way.
  • And/Or, the Knight leader could send a unit away to go inform nearby towns of an undead invasion, only to have the mysterious ghost steal the unit away (or kill it).
  • Or, when the enemy units are spreading out to claim villages, there is a village in the bottom-right of the map, near some forests. The first enemy unit that claims that village could be mysteriously taken/killed (by the ghost), and then the rest of the enemy units should stay away from that village. This would be interesting because that portion of the map is otherwise unused.

SanDonk
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by SanDonk » May 20th, 2018, 4:25 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?

1) Difficult, 1.14.1
2) 9
3) Ardonna is too passive. I like to idea of colleague above.
4) Another terribly hard scenario. The riders are too fast and very lethal, especially during days, they are able to finish of an archer in one turn. The leader is gruesome, killing basically any unit placed on the sand on single hit. I lost Ardonna (lvl3 this time, my only one, she was essential in breaking enemies waves) so many times, that I had to restart it like 20 times :D But this is a nice and fresh fact, I like to fight powerful opponents. The main problem is following: They are no villages on my side of battlefield (only one usable village in the water, where unit has no defence and is able to be placed only if guarded by wall of allies). Also the enemy has too big income.
5) 8 - it is nice, I like to idea of invading land from the boat and the bridge management strategy, but perhaps it is too difficult this time
6) Add at least 1 or 2 healing points into the boat or remove some villages around the enemies base to prevent them from recruiting a unit each turn (they started the battle with 25 units, while I had 13 on hard difficulty which is a nice competition on its own when they are not leveled and it is difficult to use terrain)

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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by beetlenaut » May 20th, 2018, 7:42 pm

SanDonk wrote:
May 20th, 2018, 4:25 pm
Add at least 1 or 2 healing points into the boat
If you play on easy, you do get one. Hard is intentionally very hard. You should fight from the ship until there are only two or three units left on land, then invade at dusk or night with expendable skeletons in front to take the hits from the knight. Also, try to make kills with walking corpses every turn. The enemy will have to waste powerful attacks killing their former friends. (There are a few scenarios where recruiting three or four WC's is really helpful. Bandits is another one.)
SanDonk wrote:
May 20th, 2018, 4:25 pm
Ardonna is too passive. I like to idea of colleague above.
A fair point. It is a good idea.
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SanDonk
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by SanDonk » May 20th, 2018, 8:17 pm

Thank you for fast reply, it is nice to see, you are interested in feedback.

From what I played yet (the first 6 scenarios) the scenarios at hard are a little unbalanced. They tend to be either quite a easy ones (the ones before and after this - 4 and 6) or terribly nightmare hard (this one and 3 - bandits, thanks god for the idea of backstabbing leader with a bat, I would be stuck here still until now instead :D). I like challenges, but usually restarting a scenario 5 or 6 times is enough for me. But I got your point, perhaps it is me, who have to improve :) It is always interesting, when i win a scenario at 20th try and have absolutely no idea, what I changed in my strategy from the last attempt (although I see a massive improvement from the first few lame attempts). Actually I did many thing you mentioned (waited 3 turns with all unites at the boat and then walked outside in turn 4 while dusk and used 2 walking corpses in front of my army to make killing blows on injured enemies - created like 3 more and one of them evolved to lvl1, actually a corpse of a rider). Also essential for my success were few bats, who confused enemy riders and lured them away from battlefield.

I am interested in the feedback of other players, this is just my personal viewpoint. Nice campaign with a lot of work inside it, though. Thanks for creating it for us.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by beetlenaut » May 20th, 2018, 8:43 pm

SanDonk wrote:
May 20th, 2018, 8:17 pm
waited 3 turns with all unites at the boat and then walked outside in turn 4 while dusk
That's not what I meant. At that point, the enemy probably has at least two dozen units who can all attack at once. You'll get slaughtered. I wait on the ship until turn 17 or 18. From the ship, you face four or five units at a time, and some of them are in the water. You can also recruit almost every turn if your bats can hold some villages. You still lose a lot of units, but it's at least manageable. When I leave the ship, the enemy usually has only two or three units besides the leader. I have at least 10.

I am interested in feedback, but I'm not actually the maintainer of the campaign any more. That's SigurdFireDragon. He's probably watching this topic though.
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by SanDonk » May 20th, 2018, 9:25 pm

Actually I was able to win in the end with this strategy and it was in turn 14. Though I had a bit of luck and also reloaded several times. Perhaps I was more offensive than expected (and perhaps it means, this mission is actually quite easy, if I could win it with inappropriate strategy?)

I would send you a record of the game, if I know, how to do it.

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octalot
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by octalot » May 20th, 2018, 9:53 pm

While the right way to play campaigns is to play them in whatever way gives you the most fun, the usual guideline for saying that you've beaten a scenario on "hard" is that you should only reload the start-of-scenario save, and that reloading a turn because of bad luck is cheating.

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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by SanDonk » May 20th, 2018, 11:11 pm

Well, I consider save-loading, when you reload a game and do exactly the same thing hoping in better luck. I used to do it many years ago, not now anymore. When you do basically a mistake and place a unit into vulnerable position and it dies and you reload the turn and place your units in different way, so it can survive, I do not consider it as save-loading but as modification of your short-term tactics in the combat (it does not make much sense for me to spend a lot of time to do the same recruitment and first few steps in the battle to get into similar position and test, if your new positioning of troops work now), but that is probably a different topic.

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octalot
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by octalot » May 21st, 2018, 12:43 pm

What about when you basically make a mistake, but the unit survives? Do you reload anyway, or do you think it's good luck and continue?

My point is that it's not a good measurement of how hard "hard" is, unless you're playing by the usual rules. I also think loading a turn-save to replay with different tactics is more fun, but consequently I accept that my play is not the best measure of how hard "normal" is.

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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by SanDonk » May 21st, 2018, 6:02 pm

Well, for sure I continue (unless the unit gets for example hardly injured or encircled by enemies etc.). That´s why I said, I had a bit of luck :)

I have no problems use it as measure of difficulty in that sense, the scenario is definitely easier, if I finish it on first shot or with just one reload, than if I completely restart 10 times and reload 10 times only during the last restart.
This is, why I originally found the scenario really nightmare hard (could not imagine finishing it in row without reload), which I stated in my first feedback. I just found it quite an interesting then, that I was able to pass with strategy, that was not considered suitable by the author. That´s all :) We might let the maintainers learn from it what they actually need. It is a pity, that I do not know, how to publish my record.

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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by glowing-fish » August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am

1. Wesnoth 1.14 Medium difficulty
2. 8, at least. Can't beat it.
3. I don't know
4. No terrain, no healing, limited choice of units, no strategic options.
5. 2, actively unfun. This scenario has made me actively dislike Wesnoth.

6. Especially as part of a campaign, this scenario is not fun, is anti-fun, because I realize I probably have to go back and play some other unfun scenarios to get the right troops. Because this campaign has limited strategic choices, that basically means I have to go back and grind or save scum.

I have been playing Wesnoth since 2004. I know the basic strategies involved. If a campaign is laid out in such a way that its not obvious in the first few scenarios what I have to do, and then I have to slog through several scenarios, just to find out that I wasn't slogging the right way, that is...not good. Is it so bad that a user can sit down and play a game and have fun? Like, that there should be an obvious way to get ahead? I mean, I get that challenging is important, but also, sometimes its okay for at least the first few introductory scenarios to be fun, and to be ways to build up for challenging scenarios.

Its also disappointing because its obvious there was a lot of effort put into this campaign, technically it is gorgeous, but I have already had to repeat one scenario. (The scenario against the bandits)

Like, part of this is that it is an undead campaign. Undead are supposed to be cannon fodder, and they aren't really elegant. You just send them forward. But without ghosts or Dark Adepts, it gets kind of boring, because I don't really have any special abilities to use against the AI. I am going to play this again, maybe going back to the ship scenario, and see if I have better luck.

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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by beetlenaut » August 25th, 2018, 3:19 am

glowing-fish wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am
1. Wesnoth 1.14 Medium difficulty
You should consider switching to Easy, at least for this scenario. You would get another healing option. You can bump it back up afterwards if you like.
glowing-fish wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am
this scenario is not fun, is anti-fun
I'm sorry you don't like it, but there is no rule that says you have to play all the mainline campaigns! There are two that I actively dislike, myself.
glowing-fish wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am
this campaign has limited strategic choices
I disagree that limited unit choices is the same as limited strategic choices, although this scenario does limit your options somewhat. Don't worry, you will get other units later. DiD gives you everything pretty quickly, and I have beat that recruiting nothing but ghosts. I considered that un-fun, so I force you get a more diverse roster in SotA.
glowing-fish wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am
I have to slog through several scenarios, just to find out that I wasn't slogging the right way
I don't get what you mean. How did you do it wrong? You should have three or four skeletons at or near level-2, but what other options did you have? Like you said, so far there haven't been a lot of unit choices.
glowing-fish wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am
sometimes its okay for at least the first few introductory scenarios to be fun, and to be ways to build up for challenging scenarios.
That was my intent with scenarios 1, 2, and 4!
glowing-fish wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 1:51 am
Undead are supposed to be cannon fodder, and they aren't really elegant. You just send them forward.
Hmm. You will have to put more thought into it than that. There are other hard scenarios later.

You can push forward and play really aggressively though, like was suggested earlier in this thread. I decided to try this scenario again that way, and it worked out OK. I lost more units, but finished faster.
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Re: Scenario 5: Blackwater

Post by glowing-fish » August 26th, 2018, 10:18 pm

Okay, I take back some of what I said. After seeing your replay, I changed my strategy a bit and beat the scenario.

And, all of the scenarios that came afterwards were a lot more fun and interesting!

So rather than saying this scenario is bad, I will say it is kind of a bottleneck...both in terms of challenge and interest.

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