Scenario 2: Dark Business

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Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by Content Feedback » May 13th, 2017, 10:36 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by jeremybauerle » June 21st, 2017, 8:39 pm

(1) Difficulty level & Version?
  • Corrupt (Challenging) 1.13.8
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
  • 3
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
  • Ardonna was very careful to keep her experiments hidden while in the academy, where the only penalty was expulsion (or so she claimed). But at the first graveyard she visits, she openly reanimates zombies while knowing that there are guards looking for her, and presumably knowing the penalty is death. Her lack of caution seemed out of character.
  • It also seemed out of character that she was so quick to kill people. She didn't even kill the bat she reanimated. She waited for it to die naturally.
  • Why can Ardonna suddenly reanimate skeletons when she finds weapons and armor? Zombies I understand narratively; she found life-lines or something running through the bat's body, so I guess she found those life lines in the dead human bodies too. Should we be interpreting the skeletons as zombies with weapons/armor? If so, why can't they plague anymore?
  • So, my main issue is that Ardonna's development, in character and in power, jumps so significantly here, and without much explanation.
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
  • You have to play very defensively. First strike units boosted by a Leadership unit is a recipe for disaster for the zombies.
  • Level 0 units have difficulty protecting Ardonna, but it seemed like the enemies preferred the easy zombie kills.
  • The guy on the guardhouse could be a pain without Ardonna's magic. But it's dangerous for Ardonna to be that close to spearmen.
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
  • 3, but we're still setting the stage for the larger adventure.
(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?
  • Maybe have the grave summons randomly be a weaponless skeleton or a zombie. This way we're not so surprised that we can suddenly summon skeletons.
  • Maybe have Ardonna plead with the guards if she's targeted. I presume she want's to kill as few people as possible.
  • Maybe have a couple Level 0 bats swoop in to protect Ardonna if she's attacked.

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by SanDonk » May 20th, 2018, 3:48 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?

1) Difficult, 1.14.1
2) 2
3) I was confused, she was to slay people with no remorse too quickly
4) None. It was easy. I did not actually need recruited units much. I recalled two lvl1 bats promoted last scenario and promoted Ardonna to lvl2. She was able to wipe out basically the most of army.
5) 7 - why not, it was somewhat different from normal stereotype and a rest from last scenario

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by Konrad2 » October 22nd, 2018, 12:42 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Diabolic, 1.14.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

8. Relative huge number of enemies and almost no gold to spare.

(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?

I enjoyed it.

(4) What were the major challenges you faced?

Directing the fight, e.g. making use of ai decision making.

(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7, it has a somewhat desperate note.

(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?

-
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by Thrash » November 2nd, 2018, 9:08 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.14.5, Corrupt (Challenging), 93 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3. All the undead you can raise makes it fairly easy. The enemy also splits its forces coming around the lake which also helps.

(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?

Good.

(4) What were the major challenges you faced?

None really.

(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6

(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?

Nothing comes to mind.
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by The_Gnat » November 9th, 2018, 5:15 am

Hi, I am planning on playing the whole campaign but thought to ask if you want feedback on how to make the scenarios funner?

Not at all trying to be rude or sarcastic just wondering if it is worthwhile to you guys to have a lot of feedback or if you would prefer I just answer the questions with short answers? :)

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by Pentarctagon » November 9th, 2018, 6:33 am

The_Gnat wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 5:15 am
Hi, I am planning on playing the whole campaign but thought to ask if you want feedback on how to make the scenarios funner?

Not at all trying to be rude or sarcastic just wondering if it is worthwhile to you guys to have a lot of feedback or if you would prefer I just answer the questions with short answers? :)
Do you mean something different from question #6?
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by The_Gnat » November 9th, 2018, 6:48 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 6:33 am
The_Gnat wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 5:15 am
Hi, I am planning on playing the whole campaign but thought to ask if you want feedback on how to make the scenarios funner?

Not at all trying to be rude or sarcastic just wondering if it is worthwhile to you guys to have a lot of feedback or if you would prefer I just answer the questions with short answers? :)
Do you mean something different from question #6?
No I mean question #6. :) I totally understand that it takes time to read through feedback and to make changes. Basically I was asking if this campaign is still under development and if ideas actually get implemented?

The reason I ask is because I saw a number of unanswered posts with suggestions and so I thought perhaps it isn't worth wasting anyone's time writing lots of ideas.

Again I will emphasize I am not trying to be rude and disrespectful of the dev team's time. I just don't want to spend time coming up with ideas for improvements if no one is going to read them, let alone implement them.

Thank you! :)

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by beetlenaut » November 9th, 2018, 8:03 am

The_Gnat wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 6:48 am
Basically I was asking if this campaign is still under development and if ideas actually get implemented?
Technically, this is up to SigurdFireDragon because he is the maintainer of the campaign. That said, I obviously still have some influence. I have not been ignoring suggestions either. Actually, I'm making a list because I do want to get some of those changes implemented (as well as some of my own ideas). When I have some time I will be working on it.
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by The_Gnat » November 9th, 2018, 8:46 am

beetlenaut wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 8:03 am
Technically, this is up to SigurdFireDragon because he is the maintainer of the campaign. That said, I obviously still have some influence. I have not been ignoring suggestions either. Actually, I'm making a list because I do want to get some of those changes implemented (as well as some of my own ideas). When I have some time I will be working on it.
Okay great! :D In that case:

Content Feedback wrote:
May 13th, 2017, 10:36 pm
(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Normal on Wesnoth 1.14 (the newest version)
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3 quite easy.
(3) What did you think about the dialog and story?
I like it that you are in a cemetery! It is such a great idea and quite fun. Furthermore the dialogue is nice! I like character interaction and since their is only one main character it is nice to have people to talk too (even if they can't see you! :) ).

However, I would suggest more talking and characterisation. I have already played scenario 3 and to be perfectly honest I was rooting for the outlaws the whole time :mrgreen: :lol: I just haven't grown to like the character Ardonna yet, whereas I could relate to Mossa's comments about how creepy it would be if dead warriors suddenly walk up to your doorstep.

In particular I was a bit shocked by Ardonna's sudden violence. As a (relatively) innocent girl with desires of eternal living I have at no point understood her turn to evil as complete and steadfast. Furthermore, even though these guards are the enemy, they are humans from her own village.

I can understand that she may have no qualms about digging up graves but I would have appreciated either:

A. Backstory about how these people are actually evil and so she wants to kill them, or

B. Dialogue between the characters which outlines the guards hostile and malicious intent so she is forced to kill them

Preferably both of the above could be implemented. :)

As it is there is a strange girl hiding in a grave yard making dumb decisions, invoking the dark arts, and killing soldiers. I am not particularly sympathetic towards her cause ;) (that is hyperbole of course, I do like the character but I think that with a few changes it could be even better!)

---

Secondly I had a bit of a problem with the fact that she reanimated a dead person when she knew there were guards. Plenty of characters in stories make dumb decisions but really? You are hiding in a cemetery with a group of soldiers, you have two options: continue hiding or try to run. In no world do you try to test your newbie necromancer skills under the noses of the guards who will certainly kill you for it. Logically as soon as she sees the guards she should try to escape the cemetery and so I would suggest a minor adjustment to the story:
Spoiler:
(4) What were the major challenges you faced?
I didn't really find any challenges. IMO there are too few guards for the difficulty level. I only recruited 1 corpse and 1 skeleton (along with recalling 4 or 5 units from the previous scenario). The key was to kill the lieutenant before he could do much damage with leadership.
(5) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7, Again this scenario is great because of its uniqueness. Of the other mainline campaigns I have played I haven't had any small combat scenarios like this and the ad-hoc recruiting from the graves is a great addition! :D

(6) What suggestions do you have to make it more fun?
Similar to my suggestions from the previous scenario this is limited tactically and I think it would be more fun if perhaps their were some more possibilities. A few ideas come to my mind:

Firstly the "I thought he said there were 7 guards" is actually a really good idea for the story. It is unique, adds a bit of dialogue and a strategic twist. However, everyone knows that the guards are going to be in the guard house. So why not change that? How about instead one of the guards is on the outside of the grave yard and when you kill the other 6 you then see him. He cries out in rage and fear as he sees his comrades slain by the corpses of the dead and tries to flee to the edge of the map. Then you have to chase after him and strike him down.

Not only would this make the scenario slightly longer and add more interesting use of the map but it would add really good story and interaction between characters. :D

Secondly, if that idea is not implemented then I would suggest a greater variety of terrain inside the grave yard to allow for more strategic movement of units. That would then allow the scenario to be harder (such as a heavy infantryman as a guard or more guards) while giving actual viable maneuvers to allow you to combat the enemy.

Thirdly I would suggest that the guards are spread out more at the beginning of the scenario. This would give strategy around who you engage first and where you fight them. Perhaps all the archers are standing by the gate while the spearman were patrolling?

Fourthly I don't like it that you can suddenly get archers. Actually what would be really good is if you only can animate a level 0 skeleton who can then advance to either an archer or skeleton! :D I always enjoy it when campaigns add new units and that would fit in very well!

As you can see I have quite a few ideas... :whistle: That is why I asked my previous questions. Hopefully this is all helpful! :) This so far has been really fun! It has awesome potential for future story development so I can't wait to see what happens next!

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by Konrad2 » November 9th, 2018, 9:38 am

The_Gnat wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 8:46 am
However, I would suggest more talking and characterisation. I have already played scenario 3 and to be perfectly honest I was rooting for the outlaws the whole time :mrgreen: :lol: I just haven't grown to like the character Ardonna yet, whereas I could relate to Mossa's comments about how creepy it would be if dead warriors suddenly walk up to your doorstep.
You are mixing up scenario 2 and 3. This is the feedback topic for scenario 2.
Last edited by Konrad2 on November 9th, 2018, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by The_Gnat » November 9th, 2018, 7:37 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 9:38 am
You are mixing up scenario 2 and 3. This is the feedback topic for scenario 2.
Hi! Thank you for that, but actually what I meant is that as proven by my reaction to the characters in the 3rd scenario, more characterisation is needed to help you like and sympathise with the character Ardonna.

Of course if this is done throughout the 3rd scenario it will be too late to fix my problem while playing the 3rd scenario. Because of that I have put this in the feedback for scenario 2. I have made a few recommendations for more development of Ardonna's character in scenario 2.

Do you agree with my assessment that more characterisation early on would be good to help you understand and relate with Ardonna?

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by Konrad2 » November 9th, 2018, 8:35 pm

I do not, because unlike you I could understand and relate with her. That does not mean you are wrong though.

And I certainly did misunderstand you, so, sorry for calling you out for no reason.
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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by SigurdFireDragon » November 10th, 2018, 5:59 pm

beetlenaut wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 8:03 am
The_Gnat wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 6:48 am
Basically I was asking if this campaign is still under development and if ideas actually get implemented?
Technically, this is up to SigurdFireDragon because he is the maintainer of the campaign. That said, I obviously still have some influence. I have not been ignoring suggestions either. Actually, I'm making a list because I do want to get some of those changes implemented (as well as some of my own ideas). When I have some time I will be working on it.
Indeed. Part of how I'm approaching the maintaining is asking "What would beetlenaut do?"

I'm following these feedback threads. It's just:
1. Most of the time I don't see a need to comment.
2. Since I'm only checking once or twice a week, someone usually does post first.
3. I'm taking a longer-term approach to feedback that isn't regarding clear cut bugs.

The_Gnat wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 8:46 am
In particular I was a bit shocked by Ardonna's sudden violence. As a (relatively) innocent girl with desires of eternal living I have at no point understood her turn to evil as complete and steadfast. Furthermore, even though these guards are the enemy, they are humans from her own village.
I've seen comments similar to this elsewhere in the SotA feedback forum.
My understanding of Ardonna is that she is in a world where:
  • People are fairly definitive about the actions they take
    Necromancy is punishable by death
    Ardonna is very practical.
    The dialog through the campaign indicates she doesn't prefer to initiate an attack.
    When attacked, she realizes it's her or them so she isn't wishy-washy about it.
So this strikes me not as a characterization deficiency of Ardonna, but maybe lack of conveying the grittiness of the BfW Universe to some degree?

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Re: Scenario 2: Dark Business

Post by beetlenaut » November 10th, 2018, 6:54 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 9:38 am
In no world do you try to test your newbie necromancer skills under the noses of the guards who will certainly kill you for it.
To be fair to me, Wesnoth scale is in the eye of the beholder. However, if the guards aren't close enough to notice, then they're doing it wrong, so: fair point. We don't have to make a big change though. We could just flip the dialog. Start from Ardonna's point of view in the graveyard, and then she could notice someone else talking by the gate after she's already done the deed is now planning to leave that way.

Edit: Oh yeah. SigurdFireDragon's analysis of Ardonna's character and world are just what I was thinking.
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