new version of The Lost General is not cool

[Skippy]

3. Proper suspense, which relies on a differential between what the player, characters, and author know is (essentially) impossible to create in the medium of Wesnoth campaigns. This is true because the characters and player necessarily know the same things, so there can be no knowledge differential between the two. The player also (almost always) knows what the victory conditions of the scenario are and that he is meant to be able to meet them. If proper suspense is to be created, I would suggest that it would take at least several scenarios worth of development, and even then I am dubious.

I nominate the Sceptre of Fire as one where you don't know that you can meet the victory conditions but which, sadly, doesn't create suspense. Just annoyance.

I do, however, think that you can have suspence in Wesnoth scenarios. In fact, I think most of them have it the first time you play through a campaign. It is because the player knows there is a way to beat the scenario - but doesn't know what it is. As players we are not like the people watching a movie (we are not passive viewers of the game) - we are more like the actors in the movie, only the director hasn't told us the script and we are ad libbing as if it is some experimental film. We really hope that the director deems our character worthy of being a feature character, but we could be just a bit part whose role is to die spectacularly in the first five minutes. When you read a novel the second time, see a movie the second time, or play through a campaign one more time the suspense goes away - but that doesn't mean it was never there.

[Mallor]

3. Proper suspense, which relies on a differential between what the player, characters, and author know is (essentially) impossible to create in the medium of Wesnoth campaigns. This is true because the characters and player necessarily know the same things, so there can be no knowledge differential between the two.

Your list has *three* things in it. Player, character, and *author*. There's a differential between what the author knows and what the player knows. That's how you create suspense in an interactive medium.

[db0]

1. Unforgiving shock is a bad thing unless handled very, very carefully. Situations where you can lose the game for no apparent reason are probably not being handled carefully (though I'm not certain: what about the ninja that keeps appearing in UtBS? Is that acceptable shock? It is nasty, but doesn't bother me that much).

The Assasin that appears in UtBS does not get to attack immediately but nevertheless also gives a surprise to the player because

Spoiler:

he triggers on a random turn (instead of a move event where the player knows where to expect it) and also comes out, usually, next to your leader, which can give you a scare if you're not levelled or just left him unguarded.[/SPOILER ALERT]

2. Forgiving shock is usually narratively as unmotivated as unforgiving shock, only less annoying to the player. If you have time to react and defeat the surprise units, why not either a) have them there to begin with and save yourself some WML or b) not have them there at all?

Like the assasin, sometimes just the sight of those units can give you the shock the author intended. Nevermind the fact that they will get a chance to retaliate and thus deal some damage at the least. Furthermore, the designer can increase the difficulty if the units just die too easily.

By all means, change the Lost General. Put some scattered bone images on the floor and a sign-post that says: "Don't walk in here unless you want Revenants to kill you."

A warning in the case of such an unexpected surprise attack would be warranted. Not something so obvious, but a subtle message to get the player on his guard, much the same way UtBS (again) does just before you step in the water with the tentacles.

Your list has *three* things in it. Player, character, and *author*. There's a differential between what the author knows and what the player knows. That's how you create suspense in an interactive medium.

What aelius means is that you cannot use the same techniques in an interactive medium that you use in a film or book because it lacks the distinction between the character and audience/player. Of course, there are other ways to create suspence and many campaigns already use them.

In the end, I agree with Mallor that overwhelming odds and insta-kills in scenarios, that are obviously designed to "soften" the player, usually create more harm than good.
If the author fears the player would get too powerful, the solution would be to grant fewer resources and/or greater challenges.

[Mallor]

Incidentally, I replayed The Lost General this evening. I took 13 dwarf fighters and 2 dwarf thunderers. I decided to "cheat" and use my foreknowledge of the level to attack via the secret passage, avoiding the General's super death guard. I also completely blew off searching the rest of the cave and left the blue dwarves to fend for themselves. Generally my policy is that "allies" are cannon fodder to shield my guys from blows, and weaken the enemy so I can get the kills and level up my guys. I'll only support an "ally" if I'm very likely to level up my guys and not get them killed while I'm at it. Allies are stupid. It's better to let them do their own dying because they usually fight pretty badly.

First I fought the undead. I just blocked up the 2 corridors, rotated my guys out of the front line and sent them to villages, and used Delfador to blast the vast majority of the undead to smithereens. Because I had neglected to bring a healer with me, it took a rather long time to heal up my guys. So when the trolls finally showed up, I skirmished with them all over the map, picking them off onesy twosey with guys that were fully healed. When I'd get close to leveling I'd just sit in a village and let a troll run up to me and bonk me. Once I only needed 1 experience to level, I'd bonk 'em back and immediately level and heal.

Fearing a repeat of the General's deathguard, I left both him and the Orc leader to the very end. My slow healing tactics had cost me lot of turns, but I still had 10 turns to kill off both of 'em. I took Konrad and my remaining Level 1 guys against the orc. I took Delfador and my Level 2 dwarves against the General. I finished with 5 turns remaining. 55 turns of slogging it out, just to avoid a repeat of last time!

Out of an original 13 fighters and 2 thunderers, I survived with 6 steelclad, 1 thunderguard, and 3 fighters. So, I lost 4 fighters and a thunderer. Too bad I didn't make a pile of gold, but experience is worth more. On the next level I brought 1 Sylph with me to heal my wounded, and consequently was able to pound the enemy into submission faster.

[Mallor]

What aelius means is that you cannot use the same techniques in an interactive medium that you use in a film or book because it lacks the distinction between the character and audience/player.

Incidentally, that's not true in general. It's true in a game like Wesnoth, where the player and the character are treated as one and the same. It is entirely possible, however, to author a game strongly in the 3rd person, and put the character in more of a straitjacket that the player has to obey. It is a myth that players have to be allowed to do whatever they personally want to do. Freedom of action is the choice of the game designer. He / she anticipates the universe as it unfolds before the player. She can make it more or less restrictive as she sees fit, so long as there's some kind of interactivity.

[db0]

I agree, but we are, of course, talking about Wesnoth

[Elvish_Pillager]

First I fought the undead. I just blocked up the 2 corridors, rotated my guys out of the front line and sent them to villages, and used Delfador to blast the vast majority of the undead to smithereens.

It's so much easier when the enemy can only attack each of your units with one unit at a time. And when you can use Delfador to blast them, but at the same time have the Dwarves be the ones taking the hits.

Preserve shock by making the enemies come at a random time and perhaps even a random place. That way, even an experienced player who reads the WML has to be careful, and you can judge how legitimate the shock is.

[drachefly]

Another alternative would be to have the Revenants be statues that are then unfrozen on their turn. You know they're there, you can't attack them, you just don't know when they'll unfreeze.

There are things you can do to minimize this threat, but you can't just run up a super-undead-killer (mage-line unit or paladin) and blast them to smithereens the moment they pop up.

[Mallor]

Preserve shock by making the enemies come at a random time and perhaps even a random place. That way, even an experienced player who reads the WML has to be careful, and you can judge how legitimate the shock is.

There isn't going to be much shock in a cave with narrow corridors. The only reason I would ever have to fight in broader lines and receive more enemies at once is by choice.