Wesnoth, a fellow developers first impressions

[Slow]

A bit about myself:

I'm a software developer, and I also enjoy playing games in my spare time, in fact it is games that got me into software development. I'm 30 years old and have been writing software since I was 10 or so.. doing it professionally for the last 10 years, mostly in C, C++ etc. I've been involved in a number of open source efforts as well..

So, I recently went on an "I need afterhour entertainment" search, and found wesnoth in the open source realm. It's a great game and I really am addicted, which says a lot for the concept. I love the simplicity (aka KISS) and the core principles of the game produce great gameplay.

Now, I've played for maybe a week.. I've played through most of the main campain, and several multiplayer games. Take it or leave it here are my opinions on the overall "wesnoth experience".

- The game rocks, it has great potential and as far as open source games go I think it's probably one of the best. It has lots of replay value in a number of ways and it is a great form of recreation.

That said, there's some ways it could be improved:

- I'm dismayed by the 1.1.1 release. Open source is awesome in that betas are released often. This is a traditional element of open source and draws people like me who like to see the bleeding edge. However, when you release only source it blocks 95% of the users of your software. This is especially the case when you immediately upgrade the server to require 1.1.1. I built from source this afteroon (PDT) and was greated with 1 fellow member online, where yesterday there was probably 20 people playing 1.1.0 multiplayer. While I completely understand the dynamics of such a release, I think the server update and the binary releases should be better coordinated to produce a "super-spiffy bleeding edge experience" for everyone. Think of it as marketing.. I know a lot of open source people hate it, but it's reality.. make it easy and inviting and more people will experience it and it will be good (tm).

- The factions seem a bit odd.. The elves have great depth. They have leaders, healers, illumination, mages etc. where most factions have only a subset of this. This could be a huge problem to tackle, but most factions are boring by comparison (I personally like elves, undead and the dwarven alliance guys). Sure there are many interesting elements in them but the complexity of the elves is much greater than all the other factions. It is this complexity which makes the game interesting and allows for new and exciting strategies which keep us enthrawled with the game. I spend thinking-time dreaming up new combinations and new ways to win.. this is what makes the game exciting.

- The multiplayer interface could use some work.. probably not a huge surprise.. If I continue to be addicted to this game over a long period of time I may just have to help out here.

well, that's all I can think of for now.. please understand I present this as constructive critisism and hope you take it as such.

Ian

[appleide]

I like this game too

IIRC the source is compiled by platforms by volunteers. If there are no volunteers, there are no binaries. The 'wesnoth developing group' is just a bunch of volunteers, volunteering...

1.1.1 is only out today.... wait like several days and it'll be all compiled.

[Noy]

- The factions seem a bit odd.. The elves have great depth. They have leaders, healers, illumination, mages etc. where most factions have only a subset of this. This could be a huge problem to tackle, but most factions are boring by comparison (I personally like elves, undead and the dwarven alliance guys). Sure there are many interesting elements in them but the complexity of the elves is much greater than all the other factions. It is this complexity which makes the game interesting and allows for new and exciting strategies which keep us enthrawled with the game. I spend thinking-time dreaming up new combinations and new ways to win.. this is what makes the game exciting. Ian

No offense, but as you get to play the game more, you'll understand how deep the factions are. I think you've played a couple of times and come to this belief, which is not really fair. There are 36 different faction combinations to play against. Playing 3 or 5, mostly as one faction isn't really a fair examination of the depth of the game.

Each faction is very unique, with the loyalists and Elves being the most similar. We don't make factions the same as each other. Undeads don't have a healer for a reason, just like the elves don't have units that deal poision damage, or a unit that has berzerk. Each faction has several strategies for dealing with a certain faction... Dark adept vs Drakes for example. However each faction also posesses a counter strategy to that strategy.Its intentional game design, and you'll understand more of it as you become more experienced. Its far more complicated than most strategy games, and the learning curve is very steep. I think very few players actually get to the point where they understand the strategies and counterstrategies invovled, and know how to apply them correctly.

[Noy]

- I'm dismayed by the 1.1.1 release. Open source is awesome in that betas are released often. This is a traditional element of open source and draws people like me who like to see the bleeding edge. However, when you release only source it blocks 95% of the users of your software. This is especially the case when you immediately upgrade the server to require 1.1.1. I built from source this afteroon (PDT) and was greated with 1 fellow member online, where yesterday there was probably 20 people playing 1.1.0 multiplayer. While I completely understand the dynamics of such a release, I think the server update and the binary releases should be better coordinated to produce a "super-spiffy bleeding edge experience" for everyone. Think of it as marketing.. I know a lot of open source people hate it, but it's reality.. make it easy and inviting and more people will experience it and it will be good (tm).

First off this game has always been a game made by us, for us. Its not that we are trying to be completely arrogant, but thats the nature of game. If someone isn't there to compile it, then we can't force someone to do it. If people have to wait a couple of days, then so be it. 1.1.1 release is nowhere as bad as some of the previous ones. I think it was 0.9.2 that the Windows version came out a week after the Mac one.

Moreover, 1.1.1 is a unstable development version,its not intended for wide release, you'll only see a 1/10th the people playing it compared to 1.02. When a major stable release (like 1.0) is put out we usually have what you consider a proper release for it.

Finally, welcome to wesnoth. We all enjoy the game, and we hope that you will see why we are here too.

[JW]

- The factions seem a bit odd.. The elves have great depth. They have leaders, healers, illumination, mages etc. where most factions have only a subset of this. This could be a huge problem to tackle, but most factions are boring by comparison (I personally like elves, undead and the dwarven alliance guys). Sure there are many interesting elements in them but the complexity of the elves is much greater than all the other factions. It is this complexity which makes the game interesting and allows for new and exciting strategies which keep us enthrawled with the game. I spend thinking-time dreaming up new combinations and new ways to win.. this is what makes the game exciting.

Hi!

I had a similar sense when I started playing MP, but as I became familiar with each faction equally I began to see their underlying uniqueness.

Rebels:
have many ranged unit
have level 1 heal and slow
have 70% defense units
have a unit with regen
have magic
have level 2 leadership
have level 2 marksman
are mostly neutral

Loyalists:
have an elusivefoot skirmisher
have magic
have charge
have 2 "scout" units
have firststrike
are loyal

Northerners:
have very few ranged attacks
have elusivefoot posioner
have regen
have level 2 slow
are incredibly cheap to recruit
have a lvl 0 recruit
chaotic

Knalgans:
most units have resistancies
luck ranged attack with Thunderer
good movetype with low movement
fast flying scout
berserk unit
steadfast unit
elusivefoot unit with backstab
mostly neutral

Undead:
unit with cold magic and no melee
strong melee resistancies in several units
plague ability in lvl 0 unit
drain in 2 units
poison
chaotic
2 flying units
nightstalk & backstab in level 2 unit

Drakes:
low defense/high hp units
many flyers
lawful and chaotic units
cold magic & heal
skirmisher
fire ranged damage
level 2 leadership

Of all the factions I think the Northerners are the least exciting (used to be my favorite faction) followed by Knalgans, Loyalist, Rebels, Undead, then Dakes in that order. The Drakes are the most unique with both Lawful and Choatic units, units with high and low defenses, units with high and low hp, and they have every damaeg type at their disposal. If you like excitement then you should try the Drakes more as I have convinced myself to do with this post.

[isaac]

This is especially the case when you immediately upgrade the server to require 1.1.1.

This will be handled more graciously from now on.

[toms]

On the faction thing:
The dwarves don´t have a real leader unit. You think it´s the dwarvish lord, but I have to contradict you:
| Subleader | Leader
Elves Marshal Elvish Lord
Orcs Warlord Souvereign
Humans General More than one: Lord, Noble Lord, Princess, Warrior King
Undead Lich/Death Knight Dread Lich
Drakes Flamehart (same as dwarves, but purki and I are making a campaign with another leader
Dwarves Dwarvish Lord - - -

I doesn´t feel bad to me because I don´t favoerite dwarves, but maybe it´s interesting.

[Slow]

yeah, please don't take it the wrong way.. it's just some suggestions and my first impresions. I understand it's all volunteers, like I say I've been involved in a number of open source efforts and completely understand what it's like. I just thought I would write it in case someone found something useful/interesting.

My point about the 1.1.1 thing was just that the server was immediately upgraded. All it takes is for the server upgrade to wait until the binaries are released, but I see that Isaac has an idea on that so that's great!

I'll shuttup now, thanks for listening guys

[Eleazar]

well, that's all I can think of for now.. please understand I present this as constructive critisism and hope you take it as such.

I think it's clear to everyone that your post was friendly and well-meant.

I too find the Elves more interesting, but the fact that the other factions seem to all have strong supporters seems to indicate that some subtle ballancing has been done.

There are a number of improvements planned for multiplayer, including support for multiplayer campaigns.

Stay tuned... A lot of good features have been coded since the 1.0 release at the end of last year. I expect 1.1.1 to be pretty rapidly surpassed as well.

P.S. Toms:
What in the world does making a list of mostly special campaign leaders have to do with faction balance?

[Slow]

OK, so I'll break my promise to shuttup and talk a bit about the faction stuff

I guess I'm just saying that I find the unique units more interesting. The reason I like playing dwarves is because of the berzerkers and the theifs (backstab). Those two things make for more interesting strategies and makes the game very interesting.

The talk about changing the griphons is cool too (different thread.. in multiplayer forum I think). It's neat to make the game a bit richer/more complex by varying the units while still keeping the engine simple.

The elves of course have lots of possible strategies with their varied units abilities.

So, I guess it's just a comment on what I find interesting in the game and perhaps if others feel that way we can continue to see new interesting units! Clearly you guys are doing a great job already so this is just a bit of feedback.

[Sangel]

While I think that great care is needed when designing/incorporating special abilities, I would agree with Slow that special abilities add a lot of spice to a unit and therefore a faction.

The Northerners probably have the fewest special abilities (regenerates and poison are the only two which come to mind), which may be why they feel a little "dull". If the "swarm" proposal ever came to fruition, that could add a little more spice (at the cost of more balancing needed by Noy and Dragonking's team).

[Dave]

Slow,

Thank you for taking the time to write your kind words and constructive criticism.

We have generally fostered a "you can expect some inconvenience if you want to play the development version" attitude, however it is not our intent to inconvenience our users unnecessarily, and so as isaac has said, we are planning to implement a solution to allow a smoother transition to new versions with respect to the connectivity to the multiplayer server.

With regard to faction balance, I think that we actually have things fairly nicely balanced now. There was a problem with the Elves tending to have 'all the fun units' for a while, but I think this is mostly dealt with. I think that each faction has several unique characteristics that makes them fun to play.

David