Ambush

Icekiss · Post by **Icekiss** » February 20th, 2004, 10:52 pm

Can sb. please explain how it is supposed to work? Pretty please

If I place my units two squares apart in a line (so that each unit can't be attacked more than twice), and one of the units in the line is a ranger/avenger on a forest tile, the enemy should think that he can attack the neighbouring units more than twice, and thus ran into an ambush. When I hover my mouse over an enemy unit, the enemy movement doesn't take the ranger unit into account at all (which I already found suspicious). But whats worse, he really seems to be able to move to these additional tiles! (my neighbouring unit WAS attacked thrice)
So, how is ambush supposed to work? Has an enemy unit to try to walk onto the spot the ambushing unit is occupying to set it of? I kinda hoped entering the zone of control would be enough...

Otherwise ambush would at least for my playing style actually be a weakness, instead of an adittional ability.

Post by **turin** » February 20th, 2004, 11:18 pm

first of all, they are hexes, not squares.

next, what version are you using? i heard (but am not sure) that this was changed recently.

Post by **Dave** » February 20th, 2004, 11:33 pm

Admittedly the name 'ambush' is a little misleading.

All that it does is makes it so the AI cannot see your unit, and will thus act as if it's not present at all. It's essentially invisible in forest.

However we are looking at changing it, to make it that anyone who moves into the ambushing unit's ZoC will be attacked.

David

Lithorien · Post by **Lithorien** » February 20th, 2004, 11:37 pm

Dave wrote:Admittedly the name 'ambush' is a little misleading.

All that it does is makes it so the AI cannot see your unit, and will thus act as if it's not present at all. It's essentially invisible in forest.

However we are looking at changing it, to make it that anyone who moves into the ambushing unit's ZoC will be attacked.

David

That's a good idea.

Icekiss · Post by **Icekiss** » February 20th, 2004, 11:54 pm

Sounds good

@turin: 0.6.99-2

KK_r · Post by **KK_r** » February 21st, 2004, 12:05 pm

Dave wrote:Admittedly the name 'ambush' is a little misleading.

All that it does is makes it so the AI cannot see your unit, and will thus act as if it's not present at all. It's essentially invisible in forest.

However we are looking at changing it, to make it that anyone who moves into the ambushing unit's ZoC will be attacked.

David

But if you don't want you ambushing unit to attack? maybe he dies, or will it be attacking without any counterattacks?

iRichard · Post by **iRichard** » February 21st, 2004, 1:04 pm

maybe a free single shot. or two. or depending on ambushing level

miyo · Post by **miyo** » February 21st, 2004, 3:06 pm

Keep it simple. Ambush just makes unit invisible until there is enemy unit next to it. This allows enough strategical benefit already.

I don't like the 'anyone entering ZoC will be attacked' as this can backfire.

- Miyo

Lithorien · Post by **Lithorien** » February 21st, 2004, 6:13 pm

miyo wrote:Keep it simple. Ambush just makes unit invisible until there is enemy unit next to it. This allows enough strategical benefit already.

I don't like the 'anyone entering ZoC will be attacked' as this can backfire.

- Miyo

It seems simple enough to have a single attack on any unit entering the ZoC without counterattacks.

Ever play Dungeons&Dragons? The same principle is there, it's called an "attack of opportunity". Basically, some unit either cast a spell and dropped their defenses, or stepped in your Zone of Control, and you get one free attack on them.

Seems to fit the KISS principle to me.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » February 21st, 2004, 6:31 pm

After attacking you are detected and therefore there is no ambush for additional units that would come to your ZoC.

One problem: my unit ambushing gets surprise attack (even if just one), then enemy can attack it (again it has chance to do damage to enemy) and finally it can attack enemy itself. This means it can deal quite a lot of damage.

Also, unit discovering unit ambushing can not retreat anymore (right?) so my chance to attack him at the beginning of my turn is quaranteed - unless he can kill me.

As already said, I don't like it. Ambush as it is now is already enough.

- Miyo

miyo · Post by **miyo** » February 21st, 2004, 6:47 pm

It is possible that 'ambush' is not yet working correctly. As I see it the idea is that when ever enemy unit enters ambusher ZoC the invisibility wears off. Though it is possible at the moment that invisibility wearing off only happens if enemy ends it's movement on your ambusher's ZoC.

- Miyo

kmj · Post by **kmj** » February 21st, 2004, 6:56 pm

another alternative...

ambushing units are invisible to the enemy in whatever their "home" terrain is until:

(a) A unit tries to move into the ambushing units' hex, at which point the ambusher gets 1 free attack. The moving unit stays on the hex just before that one, and can finish his turn, deciding to attack the now visible ambusher, or retreat. One could make the case for having a full scale combat hear.

or

(b) The ambusing unit attacks.

After the ambusher moves again, he should become invisible.

This seems to be most in the spirit of ambush; though it might complicate things because, while the ambusher is in it's home terrain, enemies could potentially "run the gauntlet" of ambushers, igoring ZoC, and (inadvertantly) bybass them.. But I think if a unit is an ambush-type, then maybe it shouldn't have zone of control.. those two concepts represent almost opposite extremes in a unit's fighting style.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » February 21st, 2004, 7:03 pm

We have already decided that ambush "wears off" when enemy unit becomes adjacent to it (there is no need to "bump" the unit to make it visible). I don't think enemy should be given option to retreat or move again.

If unit gets automatic free attack will it get ranged or melee attack? At the moment player does not have to do any selections when it is not his/her turn (people can safely do something else when it is not their turn).

- Miyo

Icekiss · Post by **Icekiss** » February 21st, 2004, 8:42 pm

The most important thing to me is, that an enemy does not have the possibility to simply bypass the unit, for this would make ambush a weakness to me (as I have already explained).
This means it is inevitable that the enemy notices that our unit is there (I mean there has to be a reason why this unit can't move onto that tile, right?). If this would simply end the enemy units turn, this might be playable, but would look quite weird to me. Same thing if it's the enemies decision whether to attack or not: Every time he does not attack would look weird (My people "ambush", and as fast as sb. comes along, they simply step out of the forest, and wait what the enemy does? Some ambush...

)
So, the only remaining option is a fight (ambush) of some kind...
If its one sided (ambusher just shoots once or twice, end of movement), it should be ranged, since there is no opposition, which is a bit hard to imagine otherwise.

And because their is no opposition, it can hardly be a big mistake (okay, the enemy could have pierce resistance, but then we simply just don't do much damage. I think thats accaptable).
Normally I would also be quite fond of the idea to let a fight take place with some kind of advantage for the ambusher (lower chance to be hit?), but I can't think of a way to get around the choice problem miyo pointed out.

Lithorien · Post by **Lithorien** » February 21st, 2004, 9:24 pm

So.. what's the point of Ambush? It's a completely useless function for units to have. You can detect ambushing units when you move next to them (and attack them), you don't lose anything by coming up to an ambushing unit, and if the unit moves than it loses ambush "benefits". It's a completely useless feature for units.

I say remove it if you're not going to change it from the way it is now.