Intelligence trait

[Dave]

The traits that have been made proportional have been done so as an explicit design decision. We should consider carefully the effect of proportional traits.

The intent of the traits system is for traits to have a larger effect on lower level units, but a smaller effect as a unit advances in levels. Being strong makes a big difference for a 5-4 fighter, but only a small difference for a 15-4 champion.

The problem with intelligence was that it became almost useless after level 1. We wanted to make it still somewhat useful, hence the proportionality. It is likely that it will still be more useful to have an xp requirement of 30 reduced by 20% than an xp requirement of 200.

A secondary problem with intelligence was that it disproportionately favored some units with low xp requirements, such as trolls. (And not vampire bats, btw, since they no longer get any traits at all). Making it proportional stops it from favoring trolls so much.

In particular, the changes to intelligent will favor mages alot, which is logical.

The quick trait had a problem that it disproportionately favored higher level units. Units do not generally get faster as they level up, so the speed improvement is one that will stay the same percentage from level to level.

A quick champion moves 20% faster, just as a quick fighter does. They both have to pay a 3 hp penalty for their speed improvement, which is significant in the case of the fighter, but almost certainly insignificant for the champion.

We decided that although quick will likely remain powerful for higher level units, we should at least make them pay something substantial in exchange for being quick -- hence we switched the penalty to proportionality.

Remember that in general, a proportional increase favors higher level units, while a proportional decrease favors lower level units. Thus the change to quick favors lower level units. The change to intelligence favors higher level units, but this is because intelligence was almost useless to higher level units previously.

Changing other traits to be proportional will favor higher level units, and we don't want to do that. They are powerful enough already.

David

[Christophe33]

I tend to agree with having the "value" of a trait going down somewhat with the level.
I just consider that quick is not such an asset to worth a loss of 3 HP at lvl1 (for a elf figther), 5 at lvl2 and 7? at lvl3. Will the 10 % be applied toward the total HP so after bonus with resilient or strong for example or on the base?
As discussed before, the real critical interest of quick is to bring the number of move to a even number, like 5 to 6 . In scenario implying move in difficult lands, it resuts in a difference of move from 1 to 2.
Using your option, a quick elf champion with a move of 6 will end up with same amount of HP or less than a strong ranger, also with a move of 6, with a barely better melee attack, worse range and no ambush ability. So you might generate some new imbalance.
I think it would have been easier just to remove the HP bonus from strong witch is powerfull enough by itself and not touch the rest.

Fir the moment, loyal desn't seem to follow the rule/wish of being less usefull at higher level. Maybe 1st loyal troup should not cost anything to maintain. It will help a bit early on when you get your first troup leveled, and would satisfy the multiplayer fanatics . Then you could have a cost of 1 at lvl2 or3 and 2 at lvl4, so basically a cost divided by two and round down).

[kittel]

Hi there,

I do not understand why it is desired to make the traits less important for high level units than for low level ones.

I would like it most if the traits played a major role all the way - otherwise i just end up with similer 3 avengers, and not "john the strong avenger, bob the quick avenger and jimmy the loyal avenger".

Cheers,
Thomas

[Viliam]

When the unit reaches the highest possible level, intelligence becomes useless... this is especially bad for units which can reach only level 1 or 2.

If the unit can be only 0 or 1 level, loyal is useless... I am not sure how much would loyal 0 level unit cost.

To make intelligent have more powerful magical attack is useless, if they are not mages...

I wish I had some good idea about it, but unfortunately I do not. Sorry. OK, I do - when the intelligent unit reaches highest level, it shoud be able to choose an additional ability (ambush, heal, whatever). Intelligent people should know something that the others do not. But this would probably break balance of the game.

[Dave]

When the unit reaches the highest possible level, intelligence becomes useless... this is especially bad for units which can reach only level 1 or 2.

This is intentional -- intelligent units are easier to level-up, but are less useful when they do level-up. That's an intended effect built into the game. It shouldn't matter so much though, because other traits are relatively less important at higher levels too.

The inverse and exception to this is loyal: it's useless at level 1, but rather valuable at higher levels. If the player chooses to 'slog through' and go with loyal units, they can get the payoffs at higher levels.

Consider if you were hiring applicants, and one seemed more talented, but the other you felt was a loyal person. Hiring the talented applicant would be more rewarding in the short term, because they would produce more, but the loyal applicant would be more likely to pay off in the long term.

I don't see any of these points as 'problems'.

Using your option, a quick elf champion with a move of 6 will end up with same amount of HP or less than a strong ranger, also with a move of 6, with a barely better melee attack, worse range and no ambush ability. So you might generate some new imbalance.

I'm sure you mean an avenger, not a ranger, in which case I would point out that an avenger generally should be better than a champion -- it is substantially more difficult to get an avenger than a champion.

David

[turin]

I'm sure you mean an avenger, not a ranger, in which case I would point out that an avenger generally should be better than a champion -- it is substantially more difficult to get an avenger than a champion.
David

The only way getting an advanced archer is harder than an advanced fighter it that they cost 4 more gold. The difference is only about one kill, which is not hard to get if you know what you are doing.

[Dave]

The only way getting an advanced archer is harder than an advanced fighter it that they cost 4 more gold. The difference is only about one kill, which is not hard to get if you know what you are doing.

An archer also requires more experience to advance, and has less hitpoints, meaning it's easier for it to die.

David

[turin]

the more xp was what i refered to by 'one kill'.

however, they have a ranged attack, making them better. i do not prefer archers to fighters, and use them the same amount, but have 6 avengers and 3 champions, which is why i think archers are easier to level.

[Icekiss]

Well, I play with Avengers only (except for the leadership bonus of marshalls), simply because they have the better overall stats: I can use them both as melee and as ranged units efficiently, and that is great!
And once you have your first higher level units, you can simply have a few newbie archers tag along to get their kills: They kill ranged, and are shielded by the stronger units all the time (as should be done for all kinds of level 1 units), so there isn't a real risk involved for them. As was already said: If you know what you are doing.
On another note: I DO savescum (and apart from the sceptre of fire this is the only place I do this) to get loyal units only. Nearly all of my units level, and they simply ARE way more worthfull if they are loyal. So, if I could choose, I would make traits selectable, though I know that this goes against the reason they were created...
The problem is that for any particular unit type there are traits that are way more worth than others: a strong mage really isn't all that great. And when your army is all your pride , it simply is a REAL temptation to simply saveload till you get the combination you think best for your unit.