Swordsmen an Pikemen

[Casual User]

Good afternoon!

The unit stats have been changed in 0.9.4, and after I took a look, I can't help but wonder : is there any reason anyone would choose swordsman over pikeman?

Think about it, they do basically the same amount of damage, BUT the pikeman has first strike which essentially makes it better than the swordsman there and then. He also deals piercing damage which is usually better than the bladed damage of the swordsmen except against skeletons (against which neither are great) and the very rare woses.

To recapitulate, pikeman deals as much damage as swordsman except against 1. skeletons where neither are a good choice, 2. woses which are rare or 3. cavalry where pikemen are light-years ahead. Furthermore, pikemen have first strike...

Used to be that pikemen dealt a maximum of 27 damage and swordsmen a maximum of 32 which made swordsmen more powerful, but less good against cavalry and without the defensive bonus of first strike. Now, where's the tradeoff?

[scott]

Now, where's the tradeoff?

At L3, where the tables turn. This came up about a month ago.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Scott: A month ago, the Pikeman did not have a 10-3 melee attack...

Good afternoon!

The unit stats have been changed in 0.9.4, and after I took a look, I can't help but wonder : is there any reason anyone would choose swordsman over pikeman?

I almost always choose Swordsman...

Think about it, they do basically the same amount of damage,

Except that the swordsman does more damage.

BUT the pikeman has first strike

Which is basically useless most of the time.

He also deals piercing damage which is usually better than the bladed damage

Except against Skeletons, Skeleton Archers, Woses, Thieves, Orcish Assassins, Fencers, Pikemen, Saurians, Saurian Tribalists, and Undead in general. The pikeman conversely has better damage type against Horsemen, Cavalrymen, Elvish Scouts, Heavy Infantrymen, Sea Serpents, Cuttlefish, and Drakes and Dwarves in general. It is absurd to say that one of those is "generally better."

To recapitulate, pikeman deals as much damage as swordsman except against

...against every single unit that isn't in the latter list above. The swordsman has higher base damage. The discrepancy is less now but that only makes up for the weakness of first strike and the more powerful advancement of the Swordsman.

Used to be that pikemen dealt a maximum of 27 damage and swordsmen a maximum of 32 which made swordsmen more powerful, but less good against cavalry and without the defensive bonus of first strike. Now, where's the tradeoff?

To sum up my point: The Swordsman does a tiny bit more damage. The Pikeman is a tiny bit more useful against wounded units. Their damage types are slightly different. Neither is superior.

[Assasin]

I prefer swordsman because I like the 8-4 attack over 10-3. I like more attacks over damage per attack.

[Doc Paterson]

Give me a Javelineer over either.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Give me a Javelineer over either.

Give me a Halberdier over all three.

[Easuth]

Give me a Javelineer over either.

Give me a Halberdier over all three.

Give me a Royal Guard over all four.

[Doc Paterson]

Give me a Javelineer over either.

Give me a Halberdier over all three.

Okay, here's a Halberdier for you. Take good care of him.

[Darth Fool]

Give me a Halberdier over all three.

Give me a Royal Guard over all four.

Give me all four and I will beat your royal guard!

[romnajin]

Give me a Royal Guard over all four.

Give me all four and I will beat your royal guard!

Give me a pair of red dragons, and I'll beat all four plus the royal guard! And maybe throw in a yeti for good measure.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Give me all four and I will beat your royal guard!

Give me a pair of red dragons, and I'll beat all four plus the royal guard! And maybe throw in a yeti for good measure.

Heck no, give me an army of horrible monsters. Who's with me that this thread is going off-topic?

[unsung]

Scott: A month ago, the Pikeman did not have a 10-3 melee attack...

Good afternoon!

The unit stats have been changed in 0.9.4, and after I took a look, I can't help but wonder : is there any reason anyone would choose swordsman over pikeman?

I almost always choose Swordsman...

Think about it, they do basically the same amount of damage,

Except that the swordsman does more damage.

BUT the pikeman has first strike

Which is basically useless most of the time.

He also deals piercing damage which is usually better than the bladed damage

Except against Skeletons, Skeleton Archers, Woses, Thieves, Orcish Assassins, Fencers, Pikemen, Saurians, Saurian Tribalists, and Undead in general. The pikeman conversely has better damage type against Horsemen, Cavalrymen, Elvish Scouts, Heavy Infantrymen, Sea Serpents, Cuttlefish, and Drakes and Dwarves in general. It is absurd to say that one of those is "generally better."
Neither is superior.

I disagree. I have found that first strike is one of the most usefull things EVER. have you seen a baerserker attack a unit with first strike before? well they usually die and give it experience. overall the pikeman IS better IMHO but not by too much and you should always have a mix of them. the halberdier is definitely better than the royal guard though. blade+pierce+meele+firststrike+resitance to pierce=scary.

[unsung]

Give me all four and I will beat your royal guard!

Give me a pair of red dragons, and I'll beat all four plus the royal guard! And maybe throw in a yeti for good measure.

give me 3 halberdiers and one javlineer and I'll give you two dead dragons and some dragonscale boots. those will costt you 300$.

[turin]

Let me say this loud and clear: Unless there is a chance of one of the two units dying on the attack, or of one of the units getting slowed (which is very rare on a melee attack), first strike is completely useless. All it does is change the order of combat, but everyone will still get the same number of strikes, so unless the battle ends before the opponent gets in all his strikes, it doesn't help you at all.

Now, that's not to say its worthless. Its good against horsemen, for example, because it menas that if they charge you they have a chance of dying before they can even get to you. But most of the time, it doesn't actually have any effect.

Now, with berserker, I guess it could have a slight effect, but not much of one, from what I can tell... I'd like to see the results of the change-to-die script to show what the difference is...

[Dave]

But most of the time, it doesn't actually have any effect.

I would say that in a fairly high percentage of battles there is a chance that at least one side will not survive. Especially melee battles.

I think first strike makes more difference in MP than in a campaign, since MP battles are decided far more by 'scrappy' fighting.

David