What do people think of the traits system?

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Does the traits system work well?

Yes! Keep it as it is!
46
35%
Yes! But add more traits! (specify ideas below)
69
53%
Yes, but it's a little unbalanced (specify why below)
9
7%
Well, it needs serious modifications (specify why below)
4
3%
No. It should be removed from the game.
2
2%
 
Total votes: 130

Bazarov

Post by Bazarov »

I like the traits, as they provide distinct differences between units. They are all pretty useful, although 'intelligent' seems a little less useful overall. I think their abilities should be hidden/latent until they hit level 2 or after their first combat, as an added possibility. Lastly, the ability to 'push your luck' (reroll) up to 3 times looking for a better set might be nice.
Possibilities:
racebane: Extra damage versus a particular race. (Orc, elf, undead, human, etc)
Dayfarer, Nightfarer...give a small bonus during a time of day. This would offset night bonuses for lawful, or give neutrals a bonus, or give a bigger swing for chaotic.
Resistant : Immune to life-drain, poison, slow. (or one for each).
Swimmer, Mountainclimber : lower movement rate for these terrains.
Defender: 70% defense rating in towns.
Prepared : Get to act on turn summoned (or add this ability to 'intelligent') (Damn useful in some situations)
Learner: (or add to/replace Intelligent) Unit counts as one level lower for purposes of earning xp.
Listener: Double leadership bonuses earned, can earn bonus from leader of same level.

Woodwizzle
Posts: 719
Joined: December 9th, 2003, 9:31 pm
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Post by Woodwizzle »

I really like these new trait ideas: Swimmer, Mountainclimber, Defender, Prepared,

How about Dexterous: Always + 5% to hit and - 5% to get hit. (or maybe 10%, the actually value would need to be balanced)

k8to
Posts: 24
Joined: January 4th, 2004, 8:40 pm

Regarding loyal

Post by k8to »

I have yet to find where on the screen the upkeep of a particular unit is listed. This is especially true before I have recalled them in the recall list.

1) Where is it (I must be stupid.)

2) Can it be made more clear so that other people don't have to feel stupid?

fmunoz
Founding Artist
Posts: 1469
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Location: Spain
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Post by fmunoz »

Upkeep: 1 gold per level, if loyal 1 gold allways. (look in the wiki docs)

Guest

Post by Guest »

I suggest taking a new apporach to new traits:

Instead of trying to balance the entire trait system which is a daunting task, try to keep each individual trait as balanced as possible.

This is alreay done to an extent (ex: quick has less HP)

I think that for every bonus a trait gives you, an equal hinderance should also be added. This makes it imperative that you take advantage of your unit's special traits while keeping them safe from their drawbacks.

With this system you could spend time making up some pretty crazy traits that maybe aren't very likely for your units to get but could have huge effects on your game strategy.

Lysander
Posts: 56
Joined: December 6th, 2003, 4:31 pm
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Choosing traits

Post by Lysander »

Which traits are useful, varies much from map to map, and from unit to unit. 'Strong' is good for Thieves, as they effectively get +2 when backstabbing, and 'loyal' is less useful for an Elvish Scout, which may only level up once. Scouts with 'quick', on the other side, have an insane movement, outriding almost everyone else.

Because of this, I would greatly appreciate to choose my own traits. This would also give one more strategical options on how to play a certain scenario, or the way a unit is used. As a second option, choosing from two units of the same type, but with different traits, would be most welcome when recruiting (possibly together with a restricted number of recalls, or something like a recallable army consisting of max, say, 12 units). As of now, recruiting is a bit soulless. I would even consider having a semi-random recruitment pool, changing from scenario to scenario, a Good Thing. This would also add to replay value, as the recruitment pool would differ from time to time on a given scenario. (Somewhat like the way an inn functioned in '7 kingdoms', if anyone has ever played that game.)
--Lysander--

Christophe33
Posts: 826
Joined: January 21st, 2004, 1:10 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Some changes on traits

Post by Christophe33 »

I like the traits and usually check them out before recalling but also sometime to figure out the unit I would rather sacrifice.
However some trait have rather minor effects. The effect of intelligence on Xp is minor...maybe it should be greater or gives some resistance to magic.
Strong and quick are usually the two most usefull, specially when they are combined...Maybe they should not be combined.
A strong fighter gets bonus for both melee and distance attack while a strong mage gets bonus only for melee.
To have the traits split into two list (major traits and minor traits) then randomly attributed from each would make it more equilibrate.
I started a scenario with bunch of 1st level loyal intelligent fighters... not really a good deal.
I don't think there should be too many traits, at least of major one (less than 10 :-). Maybe some units could get three minors instead.
What about "far-sighted" allowing to see 1 or 2 hex further than normal in fog of war or shroud (both should be used more often in the scenarios).
Magecraft could be usefull for magic units...and could give some minor magic attack to non magic units.
Loyal is usefull in some scenario with few villages and when you have to survive to the end.
For the momment the major traits are:
resilient, strong (sometime), quick
Minor: loyal and intelligent
Some traits available for some races or type of unit only as previously proposed would be nice, mayne as a third trait.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!

miyo
Posts: 2201
Joined: August 19th, 2003, 4:28 pm
Location: Finland

Post by miyo »

I value loyalty a lot - I try to advance my loyal units so my upkeep does not jump up. I know some think that income/outcome fine-tuning is not so important - but that is the way I play the game.

For outrider, as it has no 3rd level, loyalty is not so important.

- Miyo

Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
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Re: Some changes on traits

Post by Dave »

Christophe33 wrote: A strong fighter gets bonus for both melee and distance attack while a strong mage gets bonus only for melee.
This isn't true -- 'strong' only gives a bonus for melee for all units.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

Christophe33
Posts: 826
Joined: January 21st, 2004, 1:10 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Some changes on traits

Post by Christophe33 »

Dave wrote:
Christophe33 wrote: A strong fighter gets bonus for both melee and distance attack while a strong mage gets bonus only for melee.
This isn't true -- 'strong' only gives a bonus for melee for all units.
David
Oops... You are right. I had the impression range attack was higher but it's not the case. Well it will make a good trait to have a bonus on range weapon (shooter or some name like that).
It will be nice to have a system avoiding atributing traits that are useless for a unit...like an intelligent&loyal griffon rider.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!

Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: Some changes on traits

Post by Dave »

Christophe33 wrote: Oops... You are right. I had the impression range attack was higher but it's not the case. Well it will make a good trait to have a bonus on range weapon (shooter or some name like that).
It would perhaps be good...although there would have to be a system to avoid making it useless for some units.

Perhaps such a trait that only Elves can have.
Christophe33 wrote: It will be nice to have a system avoiding atributing traits that are useless for a unit...like an intelligent&loyal griffon rider.
There are currently no traits that are viewed as being useless for certain units.

Although an intelligent&loyal gryphon rider does have useless traits, this is only because we haven't yet given gryphon riders a second level -- they are intended to one day have one.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

telly
Posts: 260
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 5:07 am

Post by telly »

Strong and resiliant would be better if they were percentage gains like 15% extra damage and 15% damage resistance respectively. As it is melee units with more attacks benefit much more from strong and units with big resistances like Heavy Infantry gain a lot more effective hp from resiliant.
Same with intelligent its good with trolls but not much else. If it was like -20% rather than -6 xp it would be a lot more useful for slow to level units like knights and mages.
Quick is more like a penalty a lot of the time, especially for already fast low hp units like fencers and scouts. Maybe make it only -1hp or take away the negative hp entirely.
Loyal is fine except its almost useless in multiplayer, have an option to disable it or something.

I can't think of many new traits that'd fit except an equivalent of strong for ranged units 'aim' or something that they'd get instead.

Lord Naveed

Post by Lord Naveed »

I hate your stupid traits system............


1. Its a little bit hard to read the traits
2. There arent enough traits to make a difference
3 Some of them I have no clue what they do........Why? because i cant find what they do in the manual or website.
4. I know I don't like it, because it could be a ton better...but its hard to explain.......let me play the game some more and ill edit this....

miyo
Posts: 2201
Joined: August 19th, 2003, 4:28 pm
Location: Finland

Post by miyo »

Lord Naveed wrote:2. There arent enough traits to make a difference
They make a difference. Some units are now stronger, some are faster, some advance a bit faster, etc. instead of all being clones with very same stats.

- Miyo

Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by Dave »

telly wrote:Strong and resiliant would be better if they were percentage gains like 15% extra damage and 15% damage resistance respectively. As it is melee units with more attacks benefit much more from strong and units with big resistances like Heavy Infantry gain a lot more effective hp from resiliant.
Same with intelligent its good with trolls but not much else. If it was like -20% rather than -6 xp it would be a lot more useful for slow to level units like knights and mages.
Firstly, I'd like to happily announce that it is easily possible to change increases to % increases, if that's what we want to do. For instance in data/game.cfg you will see,

Code: Select all

        [trait]
        id=strong
        name=strong
                [effect]
                apply_to=attack
                range=short
                increase_damage=1
                [/effect]
                [effect]
                apply_to=hitpoints
                increase_total=2
                heal_full=yes
                [/effect]
        [/trait]
Which gives +1 damage and +2 hp for strong units. If we wanted to change it to +15% damage and +5% hp, all we'd have to do is change it to,

Code: Select all

        [trait]
        id=strong
        name=strong
                [effect]
                apply_to=attack
                range=short
                increase_damage=15%
                [/effect]
                [effect]
                apply_to=hitpoints
                increase_total=5%
                heal_full=yes
                [/effect]
        [/trait]
and voila, it'd be done.

Whether we want to do it is a .....maybe. The traits system is kinda intended to be a little more of an advantage for some units than others. Also, traits are designed to show up most at level 1, and then kinda decline in significance as units advance levels. Making it a % would make traits like resilient and strong really benefit higher level units.

Still, it's an idea that we should probably playtest at some point, to see how it works out.
telly wrote: Quick is more like a penalty a lot of the time, especially for already fast low hp units like fencers and scouts. Maybe make it only -1hp or take away the negative hp entirely.
Personally I think that giving an additional movement point is very powerful, and needs to be counter-balanced with an hp penalty. Making an 8 movement unit have 9 movement is quite a powerful improvement - consider how many extra hexes it lets them control.
telly wrote: Loyal is fine except its almost useless in multiplayer, have an option to disable it or something.
So, it's approximately equivalent to getting a unit with only one trait. Both players will suffer from it, so I don't see it as too much of a problem.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

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