New ulf/berserker in 0.9.0

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
Kamamura
Posts: 112
Joined: January 19th, 2005, 1:04 pm

New ulf/berserker in 0.9.0

Post by Kamamura »

The fact that the berserk ability works in offense only now is a bad thing with capital B, IMO.

Before, it was a great ability with drawbacks - similar to charge. You can deal a lot of damage, but you can also die quickly. Interesting. He is just a drooling madman that keeps whacking until he falls or the enemy is dead, offense, defense, no matter. I liked that.

Now, the guy just became a guided fire-and-forget missile. Wizards, leaders, supports, he whacks everything in one turn, as long as he attacks from at least reasonable terrain or the target has been softened. Then he retreats to heal, and again, and again, ad nauseam.

I know that there was a notion of strenghtening dwarves, but this is overreaction.

I propose to do one of the following:

- Return berserk to the original state in previous versions
- Strip berserker of his insane resistances. In history, berserkers fought almost naked, without armor. The only resistance I think is plausible is cold resistance due to this habit.
- Make him slower
Last edited by Kamamura on April 13th, 2005, 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AT
Posts: 476
Joined: May 6th, 2004, 9:44 pm

Post by AT »

I think the berserk change might be reverted, but I don't think the other two are going to happen.
Gandalf-"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!"
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."

Kamamura
Posts: 112
Joined: January 19th, 2005, 1:04 pm

Post by Kamamura »

I meant do one of the three proposed options, not all of them.

The thing that I mind most on berserker is that he punishes the mistakes too hard. If you overexpose, your units become wounded, you can retreat, heal, regroup, you have time to react. You may have to cede some space to the opponent, but that's interesting.

With berserkers, the errors are unrecoverable, if you don't notice that berserker can walk to your support unit (or worse, levelled support unit), too bad, the unit is dead. Or if you are unlucky and your frontline is breached, the support units are slaughtered instantly.

User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I have a suggestion for toning down the Ulfserker:

Reduce the number of rounds of combat it can have in one turn to 3.

A 4- or 5- 12 attack isn't bad, but at least it's only as powerful as a level 3 unit's attack. Thus, its average maximum damage would be 54, comparable with the Knight's 58 on its charge. It would no longer be able to, for instance, kill an Elvish Fighter in Forest in one turn most of the time.

It would also not be able to kill an average, Resilient, full HP unit on Grassland in a single attack. This would be a Good Thing.

It also needs some other rebalancing, but this would deal with most of the more major issues. It would also put an end to the one thing that I most hate about the Ulf/Berserker: Its deterministic nature.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

Darth Fool
Retired Developer
Posts: 2633
Joined: March 22nd, 2004, 11:22 pm
Location: An Earl's Roadstead

Post by Darth Fool »

Kamamura wrote:I meant do one of the three proposed options, not all of them.

The thing that I mind most on berserker is that he punishes the mistakes too hard. If you overexpose, your units become wounded, you can retreat, heal, regroup, you have time to react. You may have to cede some space to the opponent, but that's interesting.

With berserkers, the errors are unrecoverable, if you don't notice that berserker can walk to your support unit (or worse, levelled support unit), too bad, the unit is dead. Or if you are unlucky and your frontline is breached, the support units are slaughtered instantly.
I don't see how reverting would change this, except to make berserk useless. With the current berserk, if you leave support units open to attack by berserkers, the support units will almost certainly die. The question then is how likely is it that the berserker will die in your retaliatory strike on it? With the old Berserkers, they were essentially suicide units, and with berserk on defense, they rarely could even make it into a position where they could damage the enemy, and if they did, they almost certainly were killed in the next turn by the opponent. To me, this does not fit the dwarven race. Dwarves should not have suicide units. If they are overpowered, raise the price by 1 or 2 gold.

While berserkers can be powerful anti-support units, they are not really that great at frontal assaults. If you are finding that your support units are getting wiped out by berserkers, you probably need more front line troops for each support unit you recruit.

The Bishop
Posts: 14
Joined: February 19th, 2005, 12:19 am

Post by The Bishop »

Darth Fool wrote: While berserkers can be powerful anti-support units, they are not really that great at frontal assaults. If you are finding that your support units are getting wiped out by berserkers, you probably need more front line troops for each support unit you recruit.
The berserker can actually act in a combo with something not so terribly big (solo, even)and decimate a front line unit. This wasn't a problem in 8.11, but now that they can heal up and do it again, knalgan players on multi typically recruit 1/3 to 2/3 berserkers. It is the general concensus on multiplayer that between the extra guardsman move and the ulfserker, the dwarves have become unstoppable by anybody when in the hands of a good player.

If you insist on making the defensive berserking removal permanent, then the berserker definitely needs to be made less effective in combat (removing resistances is a good idea), or raised not by
Darth Fool wrote:1 or 2 gold
but something more to the order of 3-5 so that it retains its role as a heavy support unit rather than a standard infantry.
Last edited by The Bishop on April 14th, 2005, 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel »

I've continuously proposed stripping the Ulfserker of its resistances. I think that this would substantially ameliorate the problem, as it would no longer be an even damage match one-on-one with frontline units.

A small drop in HP (2HP) would also be appropriate. An Ulfserker should not have more HP than the Dwarven Fighter.

I believe these two changes taken together should be amply sufficient.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
Ankka
Posts: 594
Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 2:40 pm
Location: Finland

Post by Ankka »

The ulf's image is almost naked. Why are the resistances so high?

Other dwarves have armor. The ulf doesn't. Yet still, they have the same resistances. Kinda weird...

yeeha
Posts: 44
Joined: March 2nd, 2005, 4:39 pm

Post by yeeha »

I think that they shouldnt be weakened but berserk should be way it was. Selective berserkness just doesnt feel right- Berserker: nice mage, lets go berserk and kill it. Berserker kills mage, heavy infantry comes to kill him. Berserker: i probably shouldnt go berserk and be sane.

Tomyellow
Posts: 22
Joined: March 25th, 2005, 4:15 pm
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Post by Tomyellow »

yeeha wrote:I think that they shouldnt be weakened but berserk should be way it was. Selective berserkness just doesnt feel right- Berserker: nice mage, lets go berserk and kill it. Berserker kills mage, heavy infantry comes to kill him. Berserker: i probably shouldnt go berserk and be sane.
<IMHO>
I think the argument is between two choices.

1. Berserk in all time. It means berserker can not remain in life 1 turn in the front line because 2 enemy will kill him anyway. So this choice would create a totally useless unit to dwarves, in addititon they has the fewest unit-type. So I think it isn't good.
2. We create a powerfull dwarf unit with one or more disadvanages.

I think 2nd choice is better. The berserker should have more HP than a dwarf fighter, because he has trained to a berserker for more then 30 years, but he should have lesser resistances, because he doesn't wear armors. And of course he can be expensive, because berserkers are not to common even amongst dwarves.
</IMHO>

Cheers,
Tomyellow

js138
Posts: 145
Joined: February 23rd, 2005, 7:45 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Post by js138 »

Even before the change in the hands of a good player berserkers weren't suicide units. The standard tactic I observed was to ensure that the after the unit being attacked died, the space it was in would be the only one the berserker could be attacked from, and this would be filled by another unit, protecting the berserker.

I preferred them when they were beserk on defence - this made the ability a two-edged sword it is true, but with proper tactics it can still be exploited.

Now it's just way too easy to keep them alive, and it makes any archer type unit (especially mages) very hard to use effectively against the Knalgans.

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by turin »

Well, your first point stands, but...
it makes any archer type unit (especially mages) very hard to use effectively against the Knalgans.
And its hard to use pierce units against undead. :roll: Its OK to have good against ranged attacks be a strength.


---

I really think that some of the changes proposed (increased cost, make berserker only for 3-4 rounds, and reduce berserker health) would make the unit no so effective, and they are, AFAIK, being discussed.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

Post Reply