How is the in-game editor used?

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How do you use the in-game editor?

I create scenarios using only the editor
0
No votes
I create scenarios using the editor that also contain hand coded WML
1
3%
I use the editor to create the map and then hand code all WML
25
71%
I use the editor to create the map and use no scenario or WML features
6
17%
I use the editor for another purpose (please post what it is!)
3
9%
 
Total votes: 35

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octalot
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by octalot »

WhiteWolf wrote: December 18th, 2020, 5:25 pm I'll be honest, I'm not even sure where the editor's ingame help menu is - it's surely not a toplevel section in the F1 help menu. So it might be worth considering to elevate this info (along with other tips and tricks of the editor) to a more visible place in-game.
It's completely hidden in 1.14. The documentation that's in data/core/editor/help.cfg is full of "todo" notes and doesn't really say more than that it's a painting application.

The "hidden" has been fixed in 1.15, but the documentation is still limited to the well-known tools (plus the location tool).
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Pentarctagon
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by Pentarctagon »

doofus-01 wrote: December 19th, 2020, 1:14 pm I think I mentioned it somewhere else, but the scenario editor is useful for quickly testing terrain/sprite interactions. Hopefully the whole thing doesn't get tossed if a more player-friendly editor can't be rolled out. Maybe label it "preview only".
Placing units and placing items are definitely staying.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by egallager »

I chose "I use the editor for another purpose (please post what it is!)" because I don't actually create maps from scratch, I mostly just load maps from other people's campaigns into the editor in order to cheat my way thru them.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by GunChleoc »

Pentarctagon wrote: December 19th, 2020, 2:22 amThe poll is going to remain up for a couple of weeks at least, but based on the results I do definitely want to change the editor to clear out features that aren't used while improving the features that are used.
Before you clear out a feature, it would be interesting to know why people don't use it. It the reason they don't use it is that it needs some improvement before it becomes usable and that improvement is feasible, it might be worth keeping.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by gnombat »

GunChleoc wrote: December 20th, 2020, 8:22 am Before you clear out a feature, it would be interesting to know why people don't use it. It the reason they don't use it is that it needs some improvement before it becomes usable and that improvement is feasible, it might be worth keeping.
I think it's just that the scenario-related features in the editor are awkward to use. If you save a scenario with the editor, the file contains this comment:

Code: Select all

# This file was generated using the scenario editor.
#
# If you edit this file by hand, then you shouldn't use the
# scenario editor on it afterwards. The editor completely
# rewrites the file when it saves it, which will lose any WML
# that the editor doesn't support.
That means you have two choices when using the scenario editor:
  1. Never edit the scenario file by hand. Since the editor supports only a small subset of WML, this does not seem very practical.
  2. Create the scenario file with the editor, then edit it by hand and never edit it with the editor again. This is possible, but it obviously reduces the usefulness of the scenario editor. (If the developer has to maintain all the code by hand, it might be more straightforward to just write the code by hand in the first place.)
This problem is by no means limited to the Wesnoth scenario editor - most automated code generators have issues like this (e.g., see this discussion).
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doofus-01
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by doofus-01 »

gnombat wrote: December 20th, 2020, 10:32 pm This problem is by no means limited to the Wesnoth scenario editor
Sorry if this is going meta, but I briefly experimented with FLARE RPG during a forced holiday when the pandemic first came to town. In some ways, FLARE is similar to Wesnoth, I wish them well.

FLARE uses the tiled editor (https://www.mapeditor.org), and while making that work in Wesnoth probably isn't worth the effort, I do think the location-based tag/key editing would be nice. It would require a little more knowledge than purely point-n-click, but not much and it could help make clear what basic keys are available. Whatever complexity is available within a tag could be added piece-at-a-time, without requiring GUI revisions. As long as the "x,y=" is somewhere in a recognized tag?
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by octalot »

doofus-01 wrote: December 21st, 2020, 4:03 am the location-based tag/key editing would be nice
Please would you link to the relevant bit of Tiled's documentation? It doesn't seem to have anything called "location".
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BTIsaac
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by BTIsaac »

Pentarctagon wrote: December 19th, 2020, 2:22 am
JustNatan wrote: December 18th, 2020, 3:28 pm If of course you don't want to make it more user friendly, but just improve features for experienced users: ignore my post.
Right now I'm primarily focused on the even simpler question of just "do people even use it?". Which at least as of right now is leaning very heavily towards "not at all" with some amount of "yes, but not the actual .cfg file that the scenario editor creates when it saves a scenario".
That's not a very good question to ask. In theory, people will use things that are made in a way that makes them want to use it.
Right now I only make maps just for the sake of making them, but I might start doing more if I can get my hands on a new and proper PC.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by TypeZero »

to be honest i would use the editor for more than just map-Files but the editor is just not easy to work with if you want to do something else... Scenarios work but things like having more than one unit with different recruiting options is not really easy ... at least i didnt figure out how this works... maybe it would be nice to have some manual?? for it i dont know if it allready exists. I usually only draw the map and handcode the scenario .cfg. I would definitely use the editor more if the options there are not that limited or somehow... described. Maybe i didnt have figured out all the potential the editor has... I apreciate it nonetheless and like the idea and the power that editor allready has. Writing the .map files ... not sure if i would do any content with maps if i dindt have the editor tbh...
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by Pentarctagon »

BTIsaac wrote: December 21st, 2020, 12:05 pm
Pentarctagon wrote: December 19th, 2020, 2:22 am
JustNatan wrote: December 18th, 2020, 3:28 pm If of course you don't want to make it more user friendly, but just improve features for experienced users: ignore my post.
Right now I'm primarily focused on the even simpler question of just "do people even use it?". Which at least as of right now is leaning very heavily towards "not at all" with some amount of "yes, but not the actual .cfg file that the scenario editor creates when it saves a scenario".
That's not a very good question to ask. In theory, people will use things that are made in a way that makes them want to use it.
Right now I only make maps just for the sake of making them, but I might start doing more if I can get my hands on a new and proper PC.
If very few people use the editor's functionality at all, then that means a different solution is needed compared to if many people do. Then, for features that aren't being used, the first question should be "is this worth keeping in the first place?", and if it is, figuring out how to make it better is the next step. It doesn't make sense to spend time working on a feature that isn't going to be used regardless.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by BTIsaac »

Pentarctagon wrote: December 21st, 2020, 7:05 pm Then, for features that aren't being used, the first question should be "is this worth keeping in the first place?", and if it is, figuring out how to make it better is the next step. It doesn't make sense to spend time working on a feature that isn't going to be used regardless.
No, because for all you know, the main reason it's not being used could be that it's not accessible enough, or that people simply don't realize it exists or if it's something they would want.
For example, many games that have editors use scripting tools that allow users to make scripts from pre made elements that are easy to learn and require little to no knowledge of coding. An editor that works like that is inevitably used by much more people than one that needs manual scripting.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by Pentarctagon »

BTIsaac wrote: December 21st, 2020, 11:50 pm No, because for all you know, the main reason it's not being used could be that it's not accessible enough, or that people simply don't realize it exists or if it's something they would want.
Which is why I'm starting to ask these questions in the first place.
BTIsaac wrote: December 21st, 2020, 11:50 pm For example, many games that have editors use scripting tools that allow users to make scripts from pre made elements that are easy to learn and require little to no knowledge of coding. An editor that works like that is inevitably used by much more people than one that needs manual scripting.
I'm not looking to completely overhaul how the editor works - I simply don't have the time to attempt something like that.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by doofus-01 »

octalot wrote: December 21st, 2020, 7:59 am
doofus-01 wrote: December 21st, 2020, 4:03 am the location-based tag/key editing would be nice
Please would you link to the relevant bit of Tiled's documentation? It doesn't seem to have anything called "location".
Not sure what to link to specifically, but FLARE has configuration files similar to the WML files of Wesnoth, and you can write in the appropriate custom (FLARE) keys at a location in the Tiled editor. This is a screenshot of the tiled session used to create the config file to the left.
Screenshot_20201221.jpg
Basically, my point is that such a hybrid system (some button clicking, some typing) would make sense. You'd have to have some vague idea what you were doing, but the available keys are shown from some sort of template and it should be enough guidance for most people.

EDIT: I should add, the reason I'm going on about this is that I don't see a simple way to incorporate everything with button-clicking only, but I can imagine how items, units, and moveto-type events could be filled in Tiled-style with existing GUI2 widgets, in a way that wasn't confusing. The devil's in the details, it probably isn't simple, but it's not necessarily a total rewrite.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by Helmet »

doofus-01 wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 12:48 am Basically, my point is that such a hybrid system (some button clicking, some typing) would make sense. You'd have to have some vague idea what you were doing, but the available keys are shown from some sort of template and it should be enough guidance for most people.
RPG Maker does this sort of thing. There is a map editor where you do a lot of clicking, followed by a little coding in some windows, which is mostly checking boxes and entering values. For example, to create a chest on the map and put gold in the chest is easy. To make the chest require a key that is located elsewhere takes a few more steps.
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Re: How is the in-game editor used?

Post by BTIsaac »

Pentarctagon wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 12:24 am
BTIsaac wrote: December 21st, 2020, 11:50 pm For example, many games that have editors use scripting tools that allow users to make scripts from pre made elements that are easy to learn and require little to no knowledge of coding. An editor that works like that is inevitably used by much more people than one that needs manual scripting.
I'm not looking to completely overhaul how the editor works - I simply don't have the time to attempt something like that.
It was an example. My point is that pulling something because there's no demand for it is not a successful mindset. Creating demand is. I wasn't trying to tell you what you should be doing. I mostly just went off on a tangent because you said something that made it come to mind.
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