Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

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gaojicainiao
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Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by gaojicainiao » September 10th, 2019, 6:59 am

Including playing in campaigns, especially in PVP.
Dunefolk not included. But you can also write if you want.
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sergey
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by sergey » September 10th, 2019, 9:56 am

Regarding campaigns - I never noticed that particular faction is harder to play. Usually you can't choose your faction, the campaign is specifically created for that faction. The main reasons why one campaign is harder than another are gold and turn limit, not the factions. Perhaps your question is relevant to the World Conquest II add-on viewtopic.php?t=39651, where player can choose factions and maps are autogenerated.

Regarding PvP it highly depends on the map. I don't play Isar's Cross a lot, but I think Knalgans are ok there because of the small map size. In 1v1 I have hard times playing as Knalgans. I am not very good player, at least I have a strategy in my mind when I play other factions. When I play Knalgans I can only pray to get quick dwarves. Dwarves spent only 1 movement point in most of terrains. That makes the 1MP a huge difference. If I understand correctly, Doc Paterson invented the HODOR strategy (recruit outlaws only) because of the slow dwarves.

I know one talented player - MoonyDragon :) He is not ladder player, but he plays well. He says that he can play as Knalgans, he generally uses defensive strategy and builds a wall of units. Then he moves the wall on you and pushes you back. Playing with him makes me exhausted and frustrated at the end :roll: If I will gather enough willpower I will ask him to play as Knalgans and try to learn from that.

One more thought about the slow dwarves. With other units you can afford changing your plan in a middle. With dwarves that is often not possible. You should plan several turns ahead, otherwise your dwarf will come to the battle when it will be already finished :( Probably that is my problem - I am not planning each unit several turns ahead. Perhaps I will change my mind about dwarves if I will learn to plan ahead.
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MoonyDragon
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by MoonyDragon » September 10th, 2019, 6:04 pm

As sergey already noted, I absolutely love playing defensively :D
Contemplating the best moves and positions each turn is pure joy for any strategist, but in Wesnoth, my playstyle is heavily influenced by two simple and subjective sentiments:
1. I like levelling up units.
2. I dont like losing units.
I know, we all share these :lol: And sure, every strategy game requires one to sacrifice one goal to attain another. But as for me, I have embraced these as goals in themselves and orientated my playstyle accordingly. Thus, I often find myself entrenched in walls of units, denying losses at all costs and slowly spoonfeeding my own units... Until I manage to utilize a decisive advantage(Clausewitz would be proud :eng: ). Naturally, I prefer factions with excellent defense capabilities, such as Northerners (troll walls rule) or Knalgans (tons of HP + resists), but I have no problem playing the same way with all ther factions, except...

Undead.
(1) They simply cannot hold a line. Skeletons / Archers die to fire/impact. Bats and Ghosts are unreliable. Adepts die to melee. The only units thus left are Ghouls and Corpses, of which Ghouls have only 33 HP and Corpses even less... A mess to defend.
(2) And their lack of traits wont help me levelling them either, which is already an incredily boring task on a faction that has only one-dimensional advances to offer. The only unit worth advancing is the adept, despite needing 27 XP when intelligent + 70% xp settings. I'd rather pay 3 XP more for a White Mage.
(3) In addition to their one-dimensionality in advancements, I also find their lack of utility distressing. Except for the drain on Ghosts (a little weak) and poison on Ghouls (useless on defense, semi-useful on offense) the Undead have only raw damage to offer. And this raw damage greatly diminishes during the day, so that they become mostly useless.

Maybe this is my personal grudge against this otherwise easy and fun faction, but when looking at this thread: Main Factions Balance I do indeed get the impression that Undead need either some buffs or a small rework.


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dwarftough
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by dwarftough » September 10th, 2019, 6:15 pm

Hm, I'm not an expert at any means but I've read that poison is useful in defence, especially against melee-oriented factions: trying to dislodge a ghoul they poison lots of units and became weaker during your next assault

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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by dwarftough » September 10th, 2019, 6:17 pm

Speaking on topic, most of people consider drakes to be the most difficult to play well. It's because their drake units have low defence , high cost, and get damaged really easily when saurian units have distressfully low hp

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MoonyDragon
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by MoonyDragon » September 10th, 2019, 6:35 pm

dwarftough wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Hm, I'm not an expert at any means but I've read that poison is useful in defence, especially against melee-oriented factions: trying to dislodge a ghoul they poison lots of units and became weaker during your next assault
Of the two melee-oriented factions (Northerners + Knalgans) the Northerners can usually employ Trolls vs Ghouls (0% impact res + regen), so I can only think of Knalgans as having problems with the Ghoul's poison. But in that case I'd employ Thunderers/Footpads to wear the Ghoul down, thus leading to mostly one unit poisoned.
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Hejnewar
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by Hejnewar » September 10th, 2019, 6:57 pm

Klanga is the hardest faction. I literally know only one person who constantly has very good results with them and in general people tend to struggle while playing as them.

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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » September 10th, 2019, 7:24 pm

Hejnewar wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 6:57 pm
Klanga is the hardest faction. I literally know only one person who constantly has very good results with them and in general people tend to struggle while playing as them.
I think their main problem is a lack of offensive power. They've very difficult to attack against, given how Dwarvish Fighters & Guardsmen have high HP, good resistances, and strong terrain defence in hills and mountains - but on the attack, they lack a bit of punch.
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Vilebeggar
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by Vilebeggar » September 11th, 2019, 3:15 pm

For a defensive play id say the undead, but for an offensive play its the elves hands down for me. Their lvl 1 units are weak and neutral, so no bonus damage. The only thing that makes them great is that mythic 70% defense on forests, which makes them really frustrating to play against.

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MoonyDragon
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by MoonyDragon » September 11th, 2019, 5:54 pm

Vilebeggar wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 3:15 pm
For a defensive play id say the undead, but for an offensive play its the elves hands down for me. Their lvl 1 units are weak and neutral, so no bonus damage. The only thing that makes them great is that mythic 70% defense on forests, which makes them really frustrating to play against.
You seem to leave out half their faction. If you are willing to expend 20g, your arsenal includes two powerhouses of damage: Woses and Mages. Both are not neutral and thus deal obscene amounts of damage at day. But if you mean that the elves' relative fragility denies them offensive capabilities, I'd like to point out that Elvish Fighters have only 3 HP less than their Spearman counterpart, which is a reasonable tradeoff for 60% def in forest.
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Vilebeggar
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by Vilebeggar » September 11th, 2019, 7:18 pm


You seem to leave out half their faction. If you are willing to expend 20g, your arsenal includes two powerhouses of damage: Woses and Mages. Both are not neutral and thus deal obscene amounts of damage at day. But if you mean that the elves' relative fragility denies them offensive capabilities, I'd like to point out that Elvish Fighters have only 3 HP less than their Spearman counterpart, which is a reasonable tradeoff for 60% def in forest.
I was not counting mages as they are more linked to the loyalists but sure, also woses arent all that great. They have terrible defenses and only 2 strikes. Therefore vulnerable to bad rng. Sure bulky but high cost. But the core of a great offensive are high damage mobile units like loyalists horsemen and drakes, or bulky fighters like dwarves and orcs. Which elves lack. In exchange tho they do have a great defensive game which balances them to the other factions.

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MoonyDragon
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by MoonyDragon » September 11th, 2019, 8:11 pm

Vilebeggar wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:18 pm
They have terrible defenses and only 2 strikes. Therefore vulnerable to bad rng. Sure bulky but high cost.
Absolutely true.
Vilebeggar wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:18 pm
But the core of a great offensive are high damage mobile units like loyalists horsemen and drakes, or bulky fighters like dwarves and orcs.
Are woses not bulky (and slow + expensive) like Dwarvish Fighters and share the same RNG-weakness as do Grunts? Should they thus not fit flawlessly into an offensive?

But regarding mobile high-dmg dealers (Horsemen + drakes), Rebels indeed lack such a unit.
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AOW
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by AOW » September 12th, 2019, 5:07 pm

sergey wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 9:56 am
Regarding campaigns - I never noticed that particular faction is harder to play. Usually you can't choose your faction, the campaign is specifically created for that faction. The main reasons why one campaign is harder than another are gold and turn limit, not the factions. Perhaps your question is relevant to the World Conquest II add-on viewtopic.php?t=39651, where player can choose factions and maps are autogenerated.

Regarding PvP it highly depends on the map. I don't play Isar's Cross a lot, but I think Knalgans are ok there because of the small map size. In 1v1 I have hard times playing as Knalgans. I am not very good player, at least I have a strategy in my mind when I play other factions. When I play Knalgans I can only pray to get quick dwarves. Dwarves spent only 1 movement point in most of terrains. That makes the 1MP a huge difference. If I understand correctly, Doc Paterson invented the HODOR strategy (recruit outlaws only) because of the slow dwarves.

I know one talented player - MoonyDragon :) He is not ladder player, but he plays well. He says that he can play as Knalgans, he generally uses defensive strategy and builds a wall of units. Then he moves the wall on you and pushes you back. Playing with him makes me exhausted and frustrated at the end :roll: If I will gather enough willpower I will ask him to play as Knalgans and try to learn from that.

One more thought about the slow dwarves. With other units you can afford changing your plan in a middle. With dwarves that is often not possible. You should plan several turns ahead, otherwise your dwarf will come to the battle when it will be already finished :( Probably that is my problem - I am not planning each unit several turns ahead. Perhaps I will change my mind about dwarves if I will learn to plan ahead.
Sounds very attractive to me. Do you have any videos?
I want to learn. :eng:

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sergey
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by sergey » September 12th, 2019, 7:29 pm

AOW wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 5:07 pm
Sounds very attractive to me. Do you have any videos?
I want to learn. :eng:
Created by me - no. There are only few videos by Neki where Knalgans fight a faction other than Undead (Knalgans vs Undead is a different story). And those videos are not very useful imo, players made many mistakes there. To learn how to play Knalgans I am going to look tournaments replays without comments and try to experiment.

Few related topics viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47718 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48347

P.S. An epic battle Owarida (Knalgan Alliance) vs gnidaoLer (Northerners) viewtopic.php?f=70&t=49891&start=60#p643917 Both players are very strong.
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Krogen
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Re: Which faction do you think is the most difficult to play?

Post by Krogen » September 12th, 2019, 8:54 pm

To me, Knalgans are the hardest to get right. They mostly require different unit compositions against other factions, so i struggle to make a good initial recruit against random.
Undead is kind of an offensive faction so of course they'll perform poorly in defense. Though they can be quite tough to attack for Northerners.
Knalgans will deal with ghouls quite easily due to Ulfserkers.
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