Why I do not play Drakes and do not like them

Post by **Dragonking** » March 8th, 2005, 4:43 pm

Heh... I will not argue withu you, Elvish PIllager. The best way of checking it is to change it and just play. I belive that it is bad adea, but I can be wrong, cause my predictions are based only on theory. One thing more - I think burner will be very good as lawful - up to 30 points of dmg during day and 18 during night. If other players don't thinks so, that's ok. I'm not trying to let drakes be neutral, I'm just wondering, maybe in place of 4-6 give ghim 4-5 (if developers will agrre that more not mean better)

Big Bad Joe · Post by **Big Bad Joe** » March 8th, 2005, 4:44 pm

What's more, I can give you a counter-example: An Elvish Archer in forest, with 24 HP and 1 XP needed.
A 4-6 attack, in your situation, is 1.343 times as likely to kill the Archer as the 8-3 attack is.
An 8-3 attack, in my situation, is 37 times as likely to kill the Archer as the 4-6 attack is.

Please, look at the thread ( forget the name) about hitting in Wesnoth - ott and someone were showing there, that with long attack sequences - even with 3 and 4 strike ones ( they call it multiple hits) - the probabilities are not working as they are supposed to work by pure maths...
And from my own experience lvl.3 orcs are hitting much much more then they are supposed to with their 4 strokes..
Just try it yourself - make a lvl.3 Orc grunt ( do no know the name) and attack someone on 30% percent - I can gurantee at least two hits average.. ( for 20 tries or so)

Burnsaber · Post by **Burnsaber** » March 8th, 2005, 5:44 pm

Big Bad Joe wrote: Wow, what an idea . I do not want to be extraordinatily personal to you , but have you ever played Wesnoth?? What does the chance to hit have with a HP of attacker? ? ???

What i meant was this;

Where 'weak' means 'having 4 HP or less'? If you have a unit with 4 HP or less, It shouldn't be in your front rank! Besides, even a unit with three attacks is pretty good at killing someone with really low HP!

Elvish pillager just wrote it out (much) more nicely.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 8th, 2005, 5:47 pm

A good deal of testing says that among AIs, 4-6 attacks for Drake Burners are extremely close in power level to 8-3 attacks. In addition, the AI is more eager than the average human to put its damaged units in danger, and the AI is obsessed with chance to kill, so it doesn't look like a 4-6 attack is going to make them more overpowered than they are now.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 8th, 2005, 6:14 pm

Big Bad Joe wrote:Just try it yourself - make a lvl.3 Orc grunt ( do no know the name) and attack someone on 30% percent - I can gurantee at least two hits average.. ( for 20 tries or so)

I created a horde of Orcish Warlords and attacked against units with 70% defense (30% chance to hit) forty times.... 8 out of those 40 times, they hit with at least two of their attacks. 1 out of those 8, they hit 3 times. None of them ever hit all four times, and they missed all four attacks many times, although I didn't count.

The average is much less than two hits.

Post by **Dave** » March 8th, 2005, 11:47 pm

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this. I've been having 'family issues'....

Elvish Pillager wrote: Or, to put it more simply: The Clasher is better.

Reconsidering, I agree with you. Initially when the Drakes were added they were too expensive to be useful. Now they're too powerful.

We have to look at making them more reasonable.

David

Shade · Post by **Shade** » March 9th, 2005, 12:35 am

Yeah, I should weigh in here as well- given that I was the last person tweaking them. What was being done with the Drakes when I was balancing them was that I started them off fairly weak and I increased their power up over the course of three releases... So in the process of bouncing the power up I probably went Ã¢â‚¬Ëœa notch too farÃ¢â‚¬â„¢... So some effort to take them down a peg is probably a good idea... (That being said I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think they need too much of a downgrade, and the idea of making them lawful isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t half bad)

Actually, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been following this thread and itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s the first half constructive Drake thread weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve ever had (or pretty close)... Who knew that there was hope of reasonable discourse on the subject of Drakes?

Post by **quartex** » March 9th, 2005, 12:37 am

I know very little about balancing but: making their pierce resistance -20% and their slashing resistance 0% makes sense to me. Taking more damage from certain attacks will help offset their large amount of hitpoints.

Also making them lawful (or chaotic) would help by making them actually be affected by the time of day.

MadMax · Post by **MadMax** » March 9th, 2005, 1:48 am

turin wrote:(If you agree this makes no sense, you may wish to join the underground drake resistance: UDR. ;P)

Hey! Be nice!

I had better be careful, turin knows my password for the campaign serverÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Post by **Sangel** » March 9th, 2005, 3:47 am

MadMax wrote:
turin wrote:(If you agree this makes no sense, you may wish to join the underground drake resistance: UDR. ;P)
Hey! Be nice!

I had better be careful, turin knows my password for the campaign serverÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

How did this come about? Was there a transmission intercept by a team of covert radio operators working for the UDR? Or were you seduced by an agent of the UDR, who pillow-talked you into revealing your password? Or perhaps the once-noble UDR have stooped to torture, and extracted the information with unconscionable interrogation techniques?

The world waits with bated breath to hear the truth!

Kamahawk · Post by **Kamahawk** » March 9th, 2005, 5:09 am

MadMax wrote:
turin wrote:(If you agree this makes no sense, you may wish to join the underground drake resistance: UDR. ;P)
Hey! Be nice!

I had better be careful, turin knows my password for the campaign serverÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

Eastern Lord this Bloody Bird, our transmitions have been compromised by the Drakists. All UDR agents must execute emergancy plan 2-B imeadiatly.

gunsnwoses · Post by **gunsnwoses** » March 9th, 2005, 1:43 pm

Wouldn't it be more realistic to keep the Drakes as powerful as they are (or maybe even more powerful!), but just (perhaps a lot) more expensive. After all, Drakes are considerably bigger than the other races and therefore should be more powerful and tough, but they would also be far less common, and therefore cost more gold to recruit.

In multiplayer, this would manifest itself as a Drakes player having more powerful units than other races, but less of them.

Drakes could then also be made more varied as has been suggested in this thread, and possibly be made Lawful too. Such large, lumbering creatures would surely function better during daylight hours where they wouldn't keep flying/bumping into things and could spot their prey from large distances..

romnajin · Post by **romnajin** » March 10th, 2005, 3:04 am

I agree with gunsnwoses, why should something twice as big as a human be just as powerful as one? In fact, it would actually be realistic to increase their power(although unbalanced), and maybe make a clasher 50 gold? I know that is a little over done, but that would be realistic, but, once again, unbalanced.

Kamahawk · Post by **Kamahawk** » March 10th, 2005, 4:04 am

The drakes are allready more powerfull and more costly than the other races. 1 drake is typicaly stronger than its same level/fighting type counterpart from another race.

Randir · Post by **Randir** » December 24th, 2005, 7:49 pm

I'm sorry for digging out this old topic. I play this game now and then with some friends. Today I played it with someone who played it for the first time. I took Rebels, he Drakes - he absolutely owned me!

To sum it up: The drakes (even more as soon they get to level 2) kill everything with one blow: All of my units (three archers (one marksman), one mage (level 2) and one shaman) were killed by 2 level2 drakes with mostly just one blow in the forest (while I attacked them).

It really seems to me like the drakes are not balanced. I've tried some pc vs pc games and the drakes did always win!

Please balance them more since they totally ruin the game.