Sun moves backwards?

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Pvt.Slovik
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Post by Pvt.Slovik »

I also think that the current sun direction is totally bass-ackwards. This is my biggest issue with the game as it is. Using the theme system to change it would result in some maps/campaigns/scenarios going one way, some the other=mass confusion. IMHO.
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Post by pravin »

When I started the game, the right to left movement of the sun confused me. I kept thinking it's morning and it'd be afternoon.

I guess its because we are more used to left-to-right (eg. writing, side scrolling games like mario bros) that makes it seem more natural.

I, for one, would like the sun move from left to right.
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Post by Simons Mith »

I think it's the sun that's wrong, not Wesnoth. If you are facing North, the sun moves anticlockwise. Poor quality control somehwere, I think. As a theme suggestion - why not create a sundial type image - which also functions as a moondial at night - that is available in mirror-image versions and that has a shadow as a prominent feature? Shadows move in the opposite direction to the sun, and by providing both in one image people could focus on the right-to-left movement of the sun, or the left-to-right movement of the shadow, whichever worked better for them. I would also suggest making the images more asymmetric. Have the sun 3/4 above the horizon for dawn, only 1/4 above the horizon for dusk. 'Shift' the other images similarly.
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Post by Dave »

In the case of Linux/Unix users, just do this:

Code: Select all

for i in images/misc/schedule-*; do
convert -flip $i $i
done
:)

As for making it an option: if a developer wants to write and maintain the code, I'm open to using it. I would imagine the way to do it would be to flip all time of day images across the y axis if the option is set (and underground images and so forth will be backwards, but this shouldn't really matter at all).

David
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Post by Ankka »

Dave wrote:To me sun going from right-to-left makes sense, because the sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, and the right side of the map is what one would call the 'east'.

I understand the arguments from the other point of view though, and I think this is an issue that is always going to be 'intuitive' to some people in one way, and 'intuitive' to others in another. Unless an overwhelming number of people are shown to find left-to-right intuitive, I think we'll keep it the way it is.

David
I was thinking so too... it looks perfectly fine for me.
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xtifr
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Post by xtifr »

All this "if you're facing north" stuff is silly. If you're in the northern hemisphere, and you can see the sun, the one direction you are definitely not facing is north! If you're facing north, where the sun goes is -- behind you! :)

Maybe it's because I've actually spent a lot of time outdoors, hiking and such, and have a strong sense of direction, but when I saw that landscape, and saw that you could clearly see the sun, and where it rose and set, I just knew (without conciously thinking about it) that the picture was facing south. There wasn't any other possibility. It took me weeks to realize that the sun was moving the wrong way, and when I finally did, the only way I could cope with it was to imagine that the action was all taking place in the southern hemisphere. Which, by the way, I am still firmly convinced of, and don't want to hear anyone say otherwise, because it will make my brain hurt. :)

edit: I think the important point is that the picture is a landscape, not a map. And I think that's why I and so many other people find it confusing. If it were a picture of the sun/moon moving across a map, that would be completely different.
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turin
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Post by turin »

Basically, yeah...

And I think the poll demonstrates that there is about a 1/2 - 1/2 split...

Now we have to wait for a programmer to come along and apply a fix.
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defsy
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Trying to summarize

Post by defsy »

WARNING!
This is a highly superfluous, lengthy post
and hopefully insightful summary.

The perception of things:

When the sun goes from East to West in northern hemisphere:
Let me point out two extreme cases for clarity's sake
- other views are indeed more likely than these two isolated cases.


A player who looks at the scrolling area as a map might see the sun go
from the right edge of the scrolling area via the lower edge to the left edge.
Such a player might interpret the sun&moon area as another map
and be happy with a right-to-left direction, ignoring the fact that the sun's path should go
through the lower parts of the area instead of the upper because the background of the area
suggests that the upper part is sky and nobody would claim, sun&moon wouldn't be in the sky.

OTOH another player, who sees the scrolling area as a view from above the battle field,
might just think of the sun going from East to West (presumably!) as in real life
without assigning an edge of the scrolling area.
When he looks at the sun&moon area, he sees
a view of a far and faint landscape as seen by his fighters.
Still presuming northern hemisphere, (and having eyes that see more of the things
in front of oneself than in the back), the sun would have to go from left to right to not feel wicked.

Some possible solutions:

1. The user flips the images if needed.
Pros: personal control; Works immediatly
Cons: Only for the Knowing; Do it again with every new version (and never forget!)

2. Make a second, flipped, set of images and make it a preference.
Pros: Once set, it works; Works for everybody
Cons: More bytes (if SDL doesn't do flipping reliably); Has to be coded by someone

3. Make the images unidirectional. I.e. make a shadow go the opposite way of the light, etc.
Pros: Doesn't require coding or specific knowledge;
Cons: Some people might still not like it :(; Requires some non-trivial artwork
(which I would be willing to try to provide, but I ain't no great painter :?)

4. Let the poll speak the will of the "majority".
Pros: Just flip all or leave all
Cons: There will be people who are not happy; There might be poll flooding in the future ;-S

HTH and doesn't confuse too much ;-)
defsy

----

P.S.: I used only the male gender, because it's easier to read IMO. But if someone insists on political correctness I can edit ;-)

P.P.S.:
<irony>
:wink: To be realistic, for a campaign that would takes place in both southern and northern hemisphere, the direction of the sun should change between scenarios, right? :lol:
</irony>
SCNR!
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Post by ott »

The sun already can be made to go "the other way" using WML. This can be done by changing the time definitions, as is done by quartex in Under the Burning Suns (see misc/time.cfg). After all, the day/night cycle in UtBS is the result of a complex interplay of two suns.
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Post by Woodwizzle »

All this southern hemisphere stuff is wrong! The Earth (yes both halves) rotates from east to west, so the sun always rises in the east and sets in the west. Your lattitude can vary whether the sun is south or north as it passes over but this is pretty irrelevant considering the pictures we're working with.

I voted right to left because I believe it to be the most simple, logical, and intuitive solution. East and West should me on the same sides of the game maps, story maps, and time of day pictures.[/b]
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Re: Trying to summarize

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

defsy wrote:2. Make a second, flipped, set of images and make it a preference.
Pros: Once set, it works; Works for everybody
Cons: More bytes (if SDL doesn't do flipping reliably)
Of course Wesnoth can flip images easily! Its units are flipped half the time.
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Post by Dave »

ott wrote:The sun already can be made to go "the other way" using WML. This can be done by changing the time definitions
This can't be done with WML alone: you need new images too.

The images that mess things up are the dawn and dusk images: dawn looks bluish with the sun on the right hand side, and dusk looks redish, with the sun on the left hand side. You can get the sun on the side you want using WML, but you can't fix the colours up.

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Post by Viliam »

Woodwizzle wrote:All this southern hemisphere stuff is wrong! The Earth (yes both halves) rotates from east to west, so the sun always rises in the east and sets in the west.
The funny thing is that maps are usually painted with north on the top. However, when we (the northern hemisphere folks) look at the sun in midday, we look southwards. Therefore if you have a map in your hands, and you look at the sun in the same moment... the map is not placed correctly.

When looking at the right side of Wesnoth display, you are "looking at the map" and "looking at the sun" in the same time; which is unrealistic for Northerner. For Southerner, it may be correct, but the sun has to go from east (right) to west (left) -- this is the solution I would prefer. We cannot have "traditional map", "sun from east to west" and "north hemisphere" at the same time; so let's at least have "traditional map" and "sun from east to west"; and let's hope most of players will not think about the hemispheres. (And if they will, "southern hemisphere" can be the official answer.)
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turin
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Post by turin »

But we know it's not southern hemisphere, because north leads to colder climates! And if we say north is really south, well, we haven't fixed anything, because then we have the map facing south, where you can never see the sun from the southern hemisphere!
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KK_r
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Post by KK_r »

Viliam wrote:
Woodwizzle wrote:All this southern hemisphere stuff is wrong! The Earth (yes both halves) rotates from east to west, so the sun always rises in the east and sets in the west.
The funny thing is that maps are usually painted with north on the top. However, when we (the northern hemisphere folks) look at the sun in midday, we look southwards. Therefore if you have a map in your hands, and you look at the sun in the same moment... the map is not placed correctly.

When looking at the right side of Wesnoth display, you are "looking at the map" and "looking at the sun" in the same time; which is unrealistic for Northerner. For Southerner, it may be correct, but the sun has to go from east (right) to west (left) -- this is the solution I would prefer. We cannot have "traditional map", "sun from east to west" and "north hemisphere" at the same time; so let's at least have "traditional map" and "sun from east to west"; and let's hope most of players will not think about the hemispheres. (And if they will, "southern hemisphere" can be the official answer.)
The sun isn't on the map. It's slightly to the right =P. As I'm living in Europe it looks really wierd I vote for an option in the preferences menu. You might think it's unneccesary to have that but it is giving you the wrong impression of what time it is.
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