Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

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taptap
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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by taptap » August 23rd, 2016, 8:31 am

John's proposals to handle activation advantage might endear activation advantage systems to me by comparison. A pass option seems better to me. I complained how little will remain of unit differences in Wizards of Wesnoth ruleset, but not giving control of move order kills what remains of specialty units. (Passive healers need placement towards the end when you know where injured units are, leadership needs careful managed micromoves for maximum effect not possible either way, spell casters / berserkers need protection, scouts are hardly useful when only able to scout after everyone has moved). A randomish move order will have far more potential to completely throw the game in a single round than the current RNG ever had. Of course with new mechanics come new differences and gaming initiative etc. might be a thing under such rules... but compared to the simplicity and emergent gameplay qualities of Wesnoth rules, I don't know.

Absolute armor: The relative armor was ever one of the most complicated parts of Wesnoth ruleset, requiring a lot of calculation / rounding / ... by comparison absolute armor is very simple. The only change that makes rules less complicated. While this changes a lot and would require rebalancing, I can see the appeal of the simpler rule with interesting gameplay effects (even if very different from current gameplay), efficiency vs. armor would depend more on the damage distribution strong single attacks would fare better than multiple weak ones even within the same damage type. Maybe this would give enough variety so you wouldn't need 6 damage types.

True ranged: I am very happy that Wesnoth does not have it. If I read the old justification it appears they removed it for the wrong reasons though. If protecting is too hard with ranged, you could have removed the arbitrary (for MP) protection requirements instead.
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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by Naron » August 23rd, 2016, 12:12 pm

If I can add a few words in this regard, I would say that I would like Wesnoth2 to be a TBS/RPG hybrid. You would have an avatar with attributes that can be modified for the desired classes, the avatar can gain levels, can complete quests, can have equipment, etc. And on other hand, you have an army and buildings, resources that must be managed and you have to use these for victory.
And the graphics, if it must be 2D, why not be like that of Age of Empires?
This is my vision about Wesnoth2, I realize it is maybe unrealistic, but I wanted to present it nonetheless.

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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by ForestDragon » August 23rd, 2016, 12:15 pm

Naron wrote:If I can add a few words in this regard, I would say that I would like Wesnoth2 to be a TBS/RPG hybrid. You would have an avatar with attributes that can be modified for the desired classes, the avatar can gain levels, can complete quests, can have equipment, etc. And on other hand, you have an army and buildings, resources that must be managed and you have to use these for victory.
And the graphics, if it must be 2D, why not be like that of Age of Empires?
This is my vision about Wesnoth2, I realize it is maybe unrealistic, but I wanted to present it nonetheless.
it's already going to have wizards as leaders, so that could be possible
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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by Eagle_11 » August 23rd, 2016, 7:13 pm

I understand the desire to build an "Age of Wesnothian Wonders" but lets not clone everything about that game, instead lets innovate the idea such that the player avatar's character isnt forcibly an Wizard, but can become other classes like Warlord or an Guildmaster too. (poster remembrances here the Disciples series, 2 in specific)

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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by johndh » August 24th, 2016, 9:12 pm

taptap wrote:A randomish move order will have far more potential to completely throw the game in a single round than the current RNG ever had.
That's kind of the appeal. :) A battle is not an orderly, predictable thing, and nobody really has control. It's not only wrong moves that can turn the tide, but dumb luck, the weather, a slippery spot, one unit getting there slightly too early or too late, or any number of other things, and being a commander is about dealing with all of the mess, putting out fires as they happen.

But, just as people who play fighting games probably don't actually like getting punched in the face, I understand if not everybody likes the gritty and unforgiving style. ;)
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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by Andrettin » August 24th, 2016, 9:38 pm

johndh wrote: That's kind of the appeal. :) A battle is not an orderly, predictable thing, and nobody really has control. It's not only wrong moves that can turn the tide, but dumb luck, the weather, a slippery spot, one unit getting there slightly too early or too late, or any number of other things, and being a commander is about dealing with all of the mess, putting out fires as they happen.

But, just as people who play fighting games probably don't actually like getting punched in the face, I understand if not everybody likes the gritty and unforgiving style. ;)
Hehehe :D

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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by name » August 25th, 2016, 6:03 pm

johndh wrote: That's kind of the appeal. :) A battle is not an orderly, predictable thing, and nobody really has control. It's not only wrong moves that can turn the tide, but dumb luck, the weather, a slippery spot, one unit getting there slightly too early or too late, or any number of other things, and being a commander is about dealing with all of the mess, putting out fires as they happen.
I agree that's desirable. But the current accuracy-chance system does the best job of simulating all of that. It would be a shame to lose the accuracy system in favor of random turn order.

And I highly doubt the determinism crowd would accept both features. They would probably then demand no accuracy at all in Wesnoth2.

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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by Jaca_the_Elf » May 2nd, 2017, 1:38 pm

Velensk wrote:
taptap wrote:@alternating turns:
I do like alternating turns in Chess and Go.

EDIT: Hit me as I was submitting so I figured I might as well mention it, another system (used in the Banner Saga) just has the players alternate turns 1 piece at a time regardless of the number of pieces (in the banner saga this ends once one side is down to a single piece). This works out ok for it, though it can cause some extremely gamey effects (especially as a key point of banner saga tactics is that units get weaker as they get hurt). It's probably not a good option for a wesnoth alike game but for a deterministic (or mostly deterministic) system with a set number of pieces per side it could be an option.
What scripting would it require to change the turns in standard Wesnoth (all units belonging to the same faction move within one turn) into the chess-type turns (1 turn = movement of 1 unit)?

Another modification I would like to try is introducing the condition of moving any unit into a village or friendly castle in order for it to reach the next level. I also don't think levelling up should cause the dramatic increase of hitpoints, e.g. from 1 to 60 after promotion, but again, I don't know what files and how I'd need to change. Any ideas?

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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by Pentarctagon » May 2nd, 2017, 5:43 pm

Jaca_the_Elf wrote:What scripting would it require to change the turns in standard Wesnoth (all units belonging to the same faction move within one turn) into the chess-type turns (1 turn = movement of 1 unit)?

Another modification I would like to try is introducing the condition of moving any unit into a village or friendly castle in order for it to reach the next level. I also don't think levelling up should cause the dramatic increase of hitpoints, e.g. from 1 to 60 after promotion, but again, I don't know what files and how I'd need to change. Any ideas?
I might be misinterpreting this, but if you are asking how to do this with current Wesnoth's WML/Lua scripting, then please create a thread in the WML Workshop or Lua Labs forums.
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Re: Wesnoth2 ruleset (or undoing Wesnoth)

Post by kurt751 » May 2nd, 2017, 5:58 pm

chess-type turns (1 turn = movement of 1 unit)
Don't forget that a chess player has (at best) 16 units and a terrain of just 64 squares. Wesnoth allows bigger army strengths and terrains, with which the game would probably get tedious, and initial unit placement the key to victory, as you won't get (or want) to move most units.

Let me illustrate: To move a squad of 4 units to the front line, you would need 4 turns, during which your arriving squad would successively be 1,2,3 then 4 units strong, wouldn't it. Now imagine the adversary has 2 units (or one strong one) already there: He can kill your squaddies one after the other as they arrive... Meaning that there is a strong incentive to not move, since you can't stay grouped if you move.

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