New Campaigns?

[Aldarisvet]

2 nuorcs, skeptical_troll

You guys in fact suggesting to let all as it is.
But if the game presented only 2 new mainline campaigns from 2007, last one in 2012, it cannot be called developing game.
You say - hey, we have huge UMC content! But still you admit that a player hardly can orient there. To say short, all is bad.

There are things that COULD be done for refreshing. For example, to add for each release a temprorary additional new UMC campaign, every time different.
Or it is possible to make an additional release version called 'Wesnoth with best UMC collection' (without mainline).

I know, no one cares.

[Xara]

I've lusted for a Drake mainline campaign for long, please make it happen!

Btw, I feel that the majority of UMC add-ons are just not classic(or conservative) enough to meet mainline standards. Yes, there are lots of fancy stuffs, but they aren't as condensed as the core experience. It's just like A Song of Ice and Fire versus LotR/Kingkiller Series. I hope we will get more quality minimalistic campaigns like Secrets of the Ancients.

[max_torch]

One thing I like about mainline is the coherent lore and setting between all the campaigns. One of the things that attract me to a game is gameworld. I think for wesnoth it is important to have a "main" game world and factions and "mainline" campaigns that are canon of the lore. So it is not just the strategy/mechanics component I am after but just this fascinating world of Irdya.

Like in HtTT there is Delfador and Kalenz, and then you find out more about them in their own campaigns, and there are also other connections between the campaigns, and you can see it is a consistent game world, or at least an effort to make a consistent game world.

I know that in UMC there are other campaigns that are connected with their own lore and coherent setting, but you gotta admit that mainline really has overall polish. Even the music is made with mainline events and stories and cultures in mind.

[nuorc]

I agree they are perfect stuff to get started in BfW mechanics, but my point is they are not labeled in such way.

The first four campaigns are explicitly called novice level. But as somebody else already proposed, I agree we could or should include a button 'get more campaigns', maybe opening the add-ons manager with campaigns only; and some helpful link.

To say short, all is bad.

No.

I know, no one cares.

No.

You guys in fact suggesting to let all as it is.

No.

I agree not everything is great, so we should do something; and I assume that pretty much everyone here cares to a degree that we maintain an influx of players and devs.

I'm trying to take a pragmatic and somewhat optimistic approach to this, but I have the feeling any change will be hard to be pushed through. And I don't see a major change like completely breaking with the existing mainline campaigns happening; besides that it would probably take years. (And I only have vague hunches how those decisions would be made.)

[ekeron]

A button at the bottom of the campaign list leading to all of the add-on campaigns would be a good idea.

Another thing we could potentially do is maybe a monthly featured campaign that would give the synopsis that is normally displayed on the campaigns page with a button to directly download it from the add-ons page.
This would give umc campaigns that can't fit in the official wesnoth canon something to strive for.
Make a good umc campaign and get it featured for a month.

[panamaniac]

Hi all,

A couple of thoughts that I hope are helpful.

1) Wow, 17 replies! But then I realized that I'd struck a nerve. But here's what I'll say: even before posting, when I made this account last night I was so excited to see so much activity on these boards. When I discovered BfW back in ~2012 I was like, how is no one talking about this awesome game? So when I came here I was crossing my fingers that it wouldn't be a ghost town. Far from it! The passion here is really great. I just hope I'm not asking a divisive question—as long as we all remember that we're all on the same side (loving BfW) then the community will continue to be great, I suspect.

2) OK so it's all about the UMC stuff. I'll poke around the forums, it sounds like it takes a little work to "get into" them. BTW I can prolly learn this on my own but I'll just ask—are UMC campaigns doable on Android (that was where I mostly played, although I think I would actually swap my saves from Android to laptop which was awesome).

3) You guys are saying that UMC is in some ways better than mainline so I'm very excited. Just to give you my perspective, yeah, I basically played all the mainline ones, and UtBS was one of the last I played...I loved that they took what I already knew and changed it (e.g., different abilities and units, "leveling up" the main character with choices etc...maybe that wasn't all unique but I think a lot of it was? It's been a while). So I saw great potential for interesting things to be done in BfW. Then I realized I was out of campaigns and lost interest. SO, just my very uninformed two cents here, but if it had been more obvious to me that there were more campaigns I would probably have kept playing. What if one of the campaigns is like "Other campaigns" that goes to a screen explaining that mainline is best to complete first, more curated or whatever, but that an awesome experience awaits you in the UMC campaigns? Anyway, I'm sure I'm stepping in it now, but just wanted to join in as the ignorant returning player

4) Last comment—if so much awesome is on UMC, I *do* think it would be helpful to have a way for ppl to know which campaigns are best—yes, I know it's subjective, but if there were a rating system or something? I think crowd-sourcing that kind of thing is usually very good (yelp and amazon aren't ALWAYS right, but they are VERY OFTEN right!) Again, please yell at me if this has been suggested 1000 times but it just came to mind.

Thanks again!

[Aldarisvet]

2 panamaniac

You can download UMC campaigns on Android devices same way as in a laptop. I myself using android TV-box with mouse and keyboard and TV screen for playing Wesnoth as an alternative for my all-in-one desktop on Windows. I even created a scenario and uploaded it on add-ons server using android TV-box while my all-in-one desktop was at service.

And if you like RPG-style things from UtBS, you will find a lot of such stuff in the add-ons server, and the most popular thing that goes really far in this way is Legend of the Invincibles.

Then I realized I was out of campaigns and lost interest. SO, just my very uninformed two cents here, but if it had been more obvious to me that there were more campaigns I would probably have kept playing.

Yea, I hope now everyone (including developers) got that we have an interface problem here and it is absolutely needed to put a link 'Get more campaigns' in the list of campaigns as the last point. Thats not hard to implement as I can guess but will multiply the demand on UMC.

[tekelili]

I agree they are perfect stuff to get started in BfW mechanics, but my point is they are not labeled in such way.

The first four campaigns are explicitly called novice level.

All of them should be called TUTORIAL. Mainline campaigns value rests in portraits, great plot and build BfW history. But all of them have a trash gameplay wich is deasigned to be tolerated by noobs. Once a player gets some skill and tastes good stuff, it is almost impossible he try to play a mainline campaign he still didnt check. Because all of them rely on tiresome save/reload, irritating tomato surprises and careless carryover/recall/turn limit management. They are also too long for having so repetitive mechanics.

[Aldarisvet]

Well, Dead Water is a tactically balanced campaign for me (must be some exception at least, heh). From the other side, many mainline campaigns have quite primitive plotlines, far from Heir to the Throne or Descent into Darkness. Just the fact that campaign uses some facts from Wesnoth history does not make it plotline good.

[Gyra_Solune]

I've lusted for a Drake mainline campaign for long, please make it happen!

Btw, I feel that the majority of UMC add-ons are just not classic(or conservative) enough to meet mainline standards. Yes, there are lots of fancy stuffs, but they aren't as condensed as the core experience. It's just like A Song of Ice and Fire versus LotR/Kingkiller Series. I hope we will get more quality minimalistic campaigns like Secrets of the Ancients.

I'm currently charting out a mainline-style Drake campaign with this in mind! But yes the primary problem is there's a bit of a dry spell lately in regards to content creators and overall active work - it takes a large chunk of the community effort just to keep things up to date and fully functioning with as few bugs as possible.

And there's not quite so many campaigns that work well in the main game! A lot of UMC campaigns are patently enormous - isn't Legend of the Invincibles like 400 scenarios in total? And I tend to consider 20 and above as being very long! It takes a lot of work to really polish and tune up campaigns to meet the core game's standards, so it'll be a bit of time before we see a significant push.

[Aldarisvet]

But yes the primary problem is there's a bit of a dry spell lately in regards to content creators and overall active work - it takes a large chunk of the community effort just to keep things up to date and fully functioning with as few bugs as possible.

Community must be properly managed and it's efforts targeted.
Just for example, we have a good campaign Oath of Allegiance that of mainline level as Khalifate campaign potentionally. So developers could ask community - please test it, provide feedback, give suggestions. After that all devoted wesnothians go and help Kwandulin to polish his campaign and finally it is mainlined. That is a way to go forward. Instead of it we have no progress for years while 'authorities' busy with their Frogatto.
What we have for now? Some mainline campaigns need better custom units? No enthusiasm noticed to fix it. Low morale, heh.

[Eagle_11]

Remember the early RTS games ? Build base up, pump troops, raze enemy base, advance to next level, repeat it all from begin, over and over again until you finally see the ending cutscene.
Most levels in any campaign are boring as that, in the few notable exceptions where an different objective has been attempted it mostly tosses headlong into how primitive the AI is. Hence the abundance of tomato surprises, frankly there is not much else to do unless you are an wizard that can get the AI to do interesting things through obscure hacky solutions.
The AI should get an overhaul, or rather: there should be any AI to work with at all.

I think Khalifate shouldnt get mainlined at all but thats entirely another topic.

[gnombat]

I would recommend put in the bottom of the list of mainline campains additional line 'Get more campaigns' that would redirect to Add-ons server.

That actually existed in Wesnoth 1.0:

I guess it was removed when they created the "Add-ons" button on the main screen.

[Aldarisvet]

2 gnombat

Wow thank you. So that was huge interface mistake to remove it. What does 'Add-ons' button from the main menu means is not obvious, it percieved as something like Credits, Preferences and so on, something player would rarely be intrested to press, not something related to new campaigns you want get.

[panamaniac]

Am I crazy, or is having to use a mouse on the Android a new feature? Seems totally different to me than 2012 but maybe I'm crazy? I feel like this will make it unplayable. Sorry if this is a second big issue (if it is, someone will prolly call me a troll )