Old Portrait for Konrad & Li'sar

[Aldarisvet]

I thought this is aboslutely not about anime and erotic versus realism and no nudity.
Old portaits are obsolete no doubt.
For me it was a demand for more younger and more pretty Li'sar.
So who want more younger and more pretty Li'sar should just hire and artist and made an addon with more attractive Li'sar.
May be someone will ever create a campaign about young Li'sar.

[Dugi]

@shadowm
Did they choose the actress because of her skills or because of her appearance? As far as I know, there is enough aspiring young actresses to pick the pretty ones from among those who possess the skills. I don't have any evidence here, though.
Does the role actually work better with this specific actress? Interesting why do they make roles for a pretty actresses so often. And it was just suggested that the new Li'sar portrait does not fit her role when it comes to dialogues. If I was Konrad, I would just have killed her in The Princess of Wesnoth, when so many soldiers died, why to spare the one who caused it? And then I would marry a female Mage from my group.
Also, maybe you could explain me why most films or TV series for girls contain pretty actresses too (the so called testosterone brigade is unlikely to be the plan). And many films and TV series for guys have actors found very attractive by the so called estrogen brigade.
Are the role’s physical requirements actually necessary for it to work? If the character is supposed to survive some (physical) hardship, a badass actor will do better than some nerd.
Very often, however, you’ll find that the creative industry does indeed go overboard and use sex appeal as a money-making device, either subtly or blatantly. There is also often this thing called author appeal.

And guess what, we don’t make money from this game, so we quite certainly don’t need to make all our campaign protagonists into generic anachronistic supermodels without due justification.

Well, money is not a motivation, but audience still is. Less audience → less new blood in development team → nobody to replace those who go inactive because they move on in life → stalling of development → phase-out. So if you don't want the development team to begin to fall apart... hm...

Being different doesn't necessarily mean being better. For example in science, being too far away from mainstream is usually pretty bad for everyone.

Okay...?

You previously argued that wesnoth must differ. I pointed out that you have not explained why does it have to differ.

[Iris]

Well, money is not a motivation, but audience still is. Less audience → less new blood in development team → nobody to replace those who go inactive because they move on in life → stalling of development → phase-out. So if you don't want the development team to begin to fall apart... hm...

I didn’t realize that most teenagers knew how to program in intermediate-to-advanced C++. You are right, we’ve been doing things wrong this whole time; the obvious solution to dealing with our technical debt is to pander to the average teen male gamer... Not.

And it was just suggested that the new Li'sar portrait does not fit her role when it comes to dialogues.

Only because both her and Konrad are still written as naïve teenagers, since no-one really bothered to fix the prose (and the sprites) at the time the new portraits were introduced. Someone really ought to fix that, yes. Perhaps, it could be one of the people here in this thread?

[Dugi]

I didn’t realize that most teenagers knew how to program in intermediate-to-advanced C++. You are right, we’ve been doing things wrong this whole time; the obvious solution to dealing with our technical debt is to pander to the average teen male gamer... Not.

Indeed, D&D with all its far fetched female art is also played is played by teens.

Only because both her and Konrad are still written as naïve teenagers, since no-one really bothered to fix the prose (and the sprites) at the time the new portraits were introduced. Someone really ought to fix that, yes. Perhaps, it could be one of the people here in this thread?

Excellent idea to make a change partially and place it into the stable version while still in inconsistent state. Like those sprites that replaced existing ones despite having no animation. The wisdom of the development team transcends the time and space.

Okay, so I could edit it. There isn't much talking, it's no lengthy job. However, how can this grown up and skilled Konrad need so much advice from Delfador, who is no general himself after all? Will he be an expert on civil right because Delfador didn't anticipate the war or shall we find another excuse?
Please check my prose first to see if I am suitable for that purpose, because my prose is often improved by volunteers (unlike HttT, I have volunteers).

[afre]

Add-on idea: From now on, all characters are geometric shapes. Below: Where's (Wally/Waldo,) Konrad and Li'sar?



In all seriousness, I admire all the (art) contributors who worked so hard to make this project possible.
A community doesn't always get along but I am glad that Wesnoth exists

Ancient Screenshot:

(How do I resize images?)

[Whiskeyjack]

I´m really trying to keep my off-topic tendencies in check, but I have to say: Thank you, afre. That not only made me chuckle, it also warmed my heart a little. Pretty much hit my thoughts on the matter (which were´nt completely clear to me before).

I´m pretty sure Konrad and Li'sar are the two in the middle of the bottom row. Who´s who I´ll leave up to your imagination.

[Gyra_Solune]

Yeah currently the big thing is that those old portraits do not match the current style of the current game at all, which is a distinctly sort of late medieval to mid-Renaissance oil painting aesthetic that emphasizes the simple and realistic, and often the slightly dirtier sides of the world. It's a style I rather like, and one that suits the game's atmosphere. I actually went into this thread not knowing the old portraits for HttT were so vastly different, having only recently learned of this game, so it's something of a surprise!

I certainly don't think the emphasis of portraits should be modern attractiveness. After all, those standards have changed and focused so rapidly in the modern age that they make little sense in a medieval setting. Keep in mind things like how diets were poorer on the whole, and these two are military captains who take to the field themselves and take long journeys across the land, which will take their toll on anyone. All that considered, the two main characters of the campaign as depicted look pretty well-groomed for their situation and I rather like how they're depicted here - Konrad as often an uncertain and headstrong sort, Li'sar as a stern and focused commander, both who have seen their fair share of hardships and struggle. But it is true the writing could use some work. Despite what some say I get the impression the audience for this game isn't really the typical hormonal teenagers, because well...look at it. It's an often slow-paced, dry and slightly minimalistic turn-based strategy game of a very simple and elegant nature, running very heavily in the circles of open-source Linux-focused users. It wouldn't be a stretch to say easily half of our players have or have had jobs and are probably more in the mid to late twenties in age (though polling would be interesting to see for this, and could be potentially useful in seeing what people are really looking for in the game!) - and are likely of an inclination to value maturity and wise decisions in their protagonists, especially with the absolute flood of immature heroes of the recent video game industry.

[Airatgaljamov]

Okay, so I could edit it. There isn't much talking, it's no lengthy job. However, how can this grown up and skilled Konrad need so much advice from Delfador, who is no general himself after all? Will he be an expert on civil right because Delfador didn't anticipate the war or shall we find another excuse?

Well, actually Delfador is quite capable general and commander. Didn't you play Delfador's Memoirs? And even at the start of HttT it is shown that he is good at commanding and fighting, going with his men against king's rebel son.

And besides I find new Li'sar rather attractive. Old portraits now seem unserious and laughable.

[Dugi]

Well, actually Delfador is quite capable general and commander. Didn't you play Delfador's Memoirs?

I have played it. But I didn't see Delfador as some top level legendary general, rather as a wizard who picked some field commanding skills on his travels. Some sort of commander amateur.

Old portraits now seem unserious

Judging from the dialogues, it doesn't appear that they were meant to be serious. Konrad wasn't introduced much to the matters of warfare because Delfador was like Stalin and attacked the enemy to attack a decade later and Li'sar was the only loyal commander Asheviere had (anybody in a position of power will have some loyal followers, but the ones that are needed must also be capable, the others might compensate their lack of skill with loyalty).

[Airatgaljamov]

I have played it. But I didn't see Delfador as some top level legendary general, rather as a wizard who picked some field commanding skills on his travels. Some sort of commander amateur.

Real warfare is the best way to learn commanding/

Judging from the dialogues, it doesn't appear that they were meant to be serious.
Konrad wasn't introduced much to the matters of warfare because Delfador was like Stalin and attacked the enemy to attack a decade later

Well, story needs correcting and refreshment, I guess. And Delfador taught Konrad to fight, just play Tutorial for Konrad

and Li'sar was the only loyal commander Asheviere had
(anybody in a position of power will have some loyal followers, but the ones that are needed must also be capable, the others might compensate their lack of skill with loyalty).

Li'sar definitly was not the only loyal commander. Remember Asheviere's generals who fighted Queen's daughter (!), because she was a traitor.

[taptap]

If a film contains a pretty actress in an important role, is it a toxic and unrealistic perception of the world?

Are you aware that the new Li'sar is to a certain degree inspired by an attractive actress? One featuring in a film about someone literally stopping time to draw her film-self again and again.

Can only agree to Velensk in all else.

[Dugi]

Detailed answer to Airatgaljamov:

Real warfare is the best way to learn commanding/

Give a group of men guns and send them to war. In the first battle, a half of them is shot, the lucky survivors pick up some skill. In the second battle, a half of the rest is slaughtered, the lucky survivors pick up some experience. In the third battle, a half of the rest is massacred and the lucky survivors become more skilled. In the fourth battle, the demise of a half of the rest comes, but those who were lucky to survive that far are already skilled soldiers who will survive for long. The war in Vietnam was known for newcomers to the American army to die so quickly that the battle hardened ones call them 'noob', a special term for them that later became quite popular among gamers, to avoid being emotionally attached to them because the chance they would die was large.
So I'd say that yes, he would learn some commanding, but there would be 15 other delfadors who would die trying. But well, let's say that he read some books first, then had some experience, his potent intelligence helped him a lot... but still, multiclassing doesn't work that way, if he's a level 4 mage, he can't be a level 4 general at the same time. He could be like level 3 mage/level 1 general or level 3 mage/level 2 general (his level is, after all, 5).

And Delfador taught Konrad to fight, just play Tutorial for Konrad

You can tell Legoland the Elvish Fighter to attack that scarecrow, excellent leadership. You shalt be henceforth known as Lieutenant Konrad.

Li'sar definitly was not the only loyal commander. Remember Asheviere's generals who fighted Queen's daughter (!), because she was a traitor.

They were noobs. They got ownd like dandelions struck by white phopshorus. The elvish core of Konrad's army had gone though a long journey, the others were also tired after all the travel, they were outnumbered. These generals were just nosy bedmakers of Asheviere who got promoted for their loyalty.

Airatgaljamov, I am trying to find a reason why Li'sar behaves like a kid and many scenarios' plot is driven by it and why Konrad needs so much advice. Don't bash me, better find something else that could be plausible.

Are you aware that the new Li'sar is to a certain degree inspired by an attractive actress?

I found who it was. That Galadriel from Lord of the Rings. She seemed to me so alien that she was nowhere near being attractive. But it appears that she seems alien and inhuman only to me, so let it be.
A cooperating factor for her unattractiveness for me can be her manliness... she is kinda more manly than me

[taptap]

Are you aware that the new Li'sar is to a certain degree inspired by an attractive actress?

I found who it was. That Galadriel from Lord of the Rings.

Wrong.

[Velensk]

I don't think multiclassing is at all a good analogy for how developing skills works. Be careful, it's fine to use role playing mechanics to explain things but once you start actually thinking things work in terms of them you can follow some groundless trains of thought. Classes in particular are a bad one, most real roles are collections of interconnected skills. However you pick the knowledge and skills you can fill the role and I'm very confident that Defender does have the skills to command an army.

Maybe I missed something but I do not understand why you're trying to come up with good reasons for Li'sar to act as she does or Konrad to need advise. The point of rewriting isn't to change the way the characters talk to make them fit their portraits, it is to make the story play out in a way that is more satisfying and/or logical. If you're rewriting it, you could make it so that Defaldor isn't always giving Konrad advise (tutorial style comments for the players could be given by Konrad himself). I don't think you even need to though as it's in no way unbelievable that even a grown and trained Konrad would wish to seek advise from the wiser and significantly more experienced Defeldor especially as he's likely the person who trained Konrad in the first place. This could be done in such a way where it does not seem like Konrad's bearing would undercut his troops confidence. Li'sar is a touch trickier as you have to have her chase after Konrad but if this was done in such a way where it didn't feel like she was making every decision out of sheer brash arrogance and with a touch more dignity to her actions it'd still be more satisfying.

Just as an example here: Perhaps instead of surrendering in a fashion that is frankly insulting to her troops, perhaps when you reach her she could surrender in a calmer fashion and suggest you take her for ransom. This ransom would be paid but would make her mother furious at her and put her in a 'redeem yourself or else' situation where it might make sense for her to take desperate risks.

The above scenario and the more confident Konrad could both be done without changing the scenarios at all but both work on the assumption that when you rewrite you're looking to do more than just change the prose of the dialogue.

[Dugi]

@taptap
Please stop poking fun at me and tell me the name. I watch TV rarely, about one hour per month in average.

Classes in particular are a bad one, most real roles are collections of interconnected skills.

Yes, but commanding and magic don't seem to be as interconnected. Think about the times when Stalin was the commander of the Red Army. He was very intelligent (and excellent at assembling power in his hands, he advanced the economy of Soviet Union greatly) but he was bad at commanding and almost got the Soviet Union to fall.

Maybe Delfador's advice could be changed to short tests if Konrad remembers all that he was taught before the bloody examination.

The point of rewriting isn't to change the way the characters talk to make them fit their portraits, it is to make the story play out in a way that is more satisfying and/or logical.

I found the old story okay. Konrad was a puppet in Deflador's hands, serving as a head figure for the uprising, Li'sar was a moronic commander selected because she was of royal blood. But that appears to be a hopeless past.

I will certainly figure out a less silly reason for Li'sar's actions.

Just as an example here: Perhaps instead of surrendering in a fashion that is frankly insulting to her troops, perhaps when you reach her she could surrender in a calmer fashion and suggest you take her for ransom. This ransom would be paid but would make her mother furious at her and put her in a 'redeem yourself or else' situation where it might make sense for her to take desperate risks.

Or maybe he could send her to the elves in chains and shackles to keep her because she might be useful and the party carrying her might get ambushed by bandits offscreen, after she shouts offers for high amounts of gold for releasing her.

I don't want to change the scenarios' events because that would have to be rebalanced and that takes a lot of effort and would be certainly of lower quality than it's now. However, at this point I am not certain if will even be allowed to edit it, my prose isn't first class and I am not gonna do something that they will 'maybe accept, maybe not', as my previous contribution that ended in a rubbish bin just because shadowm pushed an idea that I found very counter productive and refused to implement.