What are the worst units in the game

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UK1
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by UK1 »

Velensk wrote:Just to put in my thoughts I actually feel the horsemen are a very powerful but also very situational tool of the loyalists. Not for every game but not a bad unit by any stretch.

Horsemen let you break open your damage per hex limit and to have a killing threat that your opponent cannot as easily run away from. Loyalists don't have anything else that can do that for them. I find them useful particularly against drakes, knalgans, and rebels who aren't using multiple woses.
I think "horseman are good vs drakes" only exists on paper. Because they have crap defense so the +2/3 damage they do vs drakes is negligible and the units that they'd get that bonus against will almost always have a nasty retal, it makes horsemen like one use kleenexes against them. A horseman that charges a fighter or clasher is probably toast the next turn. If it charges a burner it'll probably still be in pretty bad shape. If the opponent lands two hits with the Burner you're already in no condition to attack the next round and could very easily get killed by a skirmisher. Saurian skirmishers are stupid to use it against and Augurs are pierce resistant and are very much likely to have 60% defense, making the luck reliant horseman attack suboptimal. Really the only unit that it makes sense to buy a horseman to charge with is the Glider, which is also the unit that can easily stay away from it. So I honestly don't see how this "good vs drakes" dog can hunt.

In many ways they're a glass cannon. The money is way better spent on a Cav and a half or a Spearman and thre quarters imo.

The best application of Horsemen is dealing the final blow to a unit who normally could not be killed in one hit. Unless you're hitting DA's or Mages, if you use them to open an assault they do not last long at all because the retal they take is super intense just by the nature of their ability. The only other unit that goes "Oh, well, I've attacked once. I'm done now." is an ulfserker. And that unit costs considerably less. The Wesnoth manual even out and out says that Horsemen are best for finishing off weakened units. Which brings me back to why the Hell am I paying 23 gold for a cleanup crew?!

I can understand that there are situations where they're useful. But that does not preclude them from being the worst unit:

1: Just because there are situations where something is useful doesn't mean it's not less useful than everything else.

2: The prohibitive cost of the Horseman and its incredibly limited application means that it will almost never (and really shouldn't) make an appearance in your OR. And after your OR, you're going to have to collect all your natural villages and then wait two turns to buy one.

I'd say it's good at hitting DA's. But not much better than the Cav, particularly when you take into account the Cav's superior resistances, the ludicrous price differences, and the fact that any undead player worth their salt will be guarding their DA's with their life regardless of whether or not the opponent has a cav or a horseman.
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Gyra_Solune
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Gyra_Solune »

Again it's not really just that the Horseman does 'a lot' of damage, it's that it does enough exactly enough damage to kill almost anything in the game barring the biggest defensive tanks a faction has to offer - and most units cannot actually kill it on the counterattack. The fact that they will be severely injured by a Burner or Warrior or Skirmisher doesn't really matter - because the way you use the Horsemen is to make a big killing blow in one concentrated place, and then retreat immediately after. They're significant against Drakes because, even though Loyalists have a lot of pierce, Drakes have a lot of HP, and they operate by carefully managing that and squeezing every last use of their units as possible. The slightly higher damage per gold that Horsemen can do is in fact significant because Drakes are set up specifically so that they end up at extremely low but not dead health.

I would say just as well that they aren't really that great at 'cleaning up'? Cavalry do that somewhat better. They're best at what an actual cavalry charge was historically good at - doing a lot of damage in the opening, then being supported by the infantry to take care of the rest, or finishing off. Actually, learning about the roles of historical medieval military applies a lot to the Loyalists and how they operate.

I don't think one should purchase a Horseman in the opening round, no, because in the opening round you're focusing on scouting ahead and setting up your central lines of defense - an OR loyalist setup I much prefer is at least one cavalry, maybe two, and a Fencer depending on the map setup, then a handful of spearmen and an bowman to back them up. Horsemen are for when the battle is heated, and perhaps you're on the back foot - they're an excellent way to turn things around, and their speed makes them easily able to reinforce and break through. The expense is because, if they were of a cost that you could reasonably recruit one every turn, the Loyalists would be almost completely dominant over others.
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Eagle_11
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Eagle_11 »

The lvl2 kamikaze Lancer, kills one unit(if you are really lucky) and then dies, leaving you pondering why did you spend so much time leveling one horseman into it.
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Ravana »

Out of core units I would say tentacle, low damage, almost immobile, negative resists, no advancement, high xp.
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Gyra_Solune
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Gyra_Solune »

Eagle_11 wrote:The lvl2 kamikaze Lancer, kills one unit(if you are really lucky) and then dies, leaving you pondering why did you spend so much time leveling one horseman into it.
But the thing is that it does not just die instantly?

Like people seem to be under the impression if a unit uses Charge it will absolutely without a doubt die. But...no, the Horseman and its promotions have plenty of HP to survive retaliation even from a number of melee units? And you obviously should not just throw this expensive, powerful unit around lightly but instead support it with regular infantry and cavalry to protect it from that retaliation? I think offensively it helps if you basically treat it like you would a mage, you make sure it's never alone and able to be killed off easily, so you keep them hanging around in the reserves until you have an opportune moment - and the Horseman has the advantage of that high movement cost so an opponent might not even see that you have it if you use it right.

And why would it be really lucky for a Lancer to kill a unit? The level 1 can already kill most anything with its 9-2 base - the Lancer bumps that up to basically killing literally everything with its base attack bumped to 12 and on top of that it gets a third strike. With two hits that's a total of 48 damage at base neutral times of day - this is more than literally every level 1 aside from the Wose (though it might not be enough for the level 1 ogre and troll with their resistances). With three that's 72, if its strong and its daytime that goes up to a kind of ridiculous 96 like I do not think people are understanding how ludicrously powerful these units are, like a unit that can kill another unit outright of its same level in one combat round is almost nonexistent and only applicable in specific cases, like the only other one I can think of is the Dark Adept v Drake Glider at night and that is in a situation where the entire matchup revolves around that extreme damage bonus the Adept has (and even then the Fighter has /exactly/ enough HP to survive with just 1 left). And here the Loyalists have a guy who can do that, to like, 90% of all other units in the game, that is kind of a huge enormous deal that it obviously has to be tempered by high cost and risky usage. Even then, the horseman still has in its favor a rather high amount of HP and the typical mounted unit resistances (bear in mind piercing melee is actually not that common, only held by the spearman, guardsman, goblin, skirmisher, mermen, clasher, khaiyal, and the horseman itself, most melee attacks are actually blade). Like seriously, if you know what you're doing the Horseman can survive what's thrown at it perfectly fine.
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Gyra_Solune
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Gyra_Solune »

Ravana wrote:Out of core units I would say tentacle, low damage, almost immobile, negative resists, no advancement, high xp.
I am going to say that for the tentacle you get what you pay for? It's not actually that terrible defensively, since it regenerates and all, but it's certainly not great. Only costs 12 gold though which is more like a level 0.5 unit. In the leftovers faction I made they actually have kind of an important role in that it's an aquatic unit with a passable-ish melee attack, compared to the boats who have none and the mermaids who are ultra squishy. That faction lives and dies on controlling water since those aquatic ranged units are their only passable heavy-hitting ranged attacks the faction has - their only other options are the Orcish Leader's sidearm, the Dwarvish Scout's meh throwing axes (though he levels up really fast, like why does the scout only need 30 xp to level when it's not even that especially weak), the extremely slow mudcrawler's mud which is sort of okay en masse, and the...the fire guardian. I already talked about the fire guardian! Hideously expensive, low offenses, pitiful HP along with drake-like dodging, like literally the only thing it has going for it is that it uses fire attacks...which is mitigated by how that faction has easy access to plenty of cheap powerful impact damage in the form of the Thug.

Scorpions are also not the best things. They cost an absolute fortune - 22 gold compared to the 23 which is argued to be prohibitingly expensive for the ridiculously powerful horseman. But they do a fraction of the damage, with a 9-1 stinger and 4-4 standard melee attack, on a neutral unit. Literally all they have going for them is their semi-unique status as a fast poisoning unit, and their somewhat high HP and impact resist, so like, if you have a nest of these they can hold people off? But the 9-1 stinger means they actually struggle to even get that poisoning in, and they have a patently absurd -100% weakness to fire which means mages and the like completely destroy them.

And then there's giant rats, who, yes, are a level 0 unit but easily the worst of the bunch. 6 gold for a 2-4 melee attack. Even though it's chaotic IIRC it cannot actually get to 3-4 at night unless you have a level 1 leader next to it and even then it's 3-4 in those extremely specific circumstances, plus they only have 15 HP. Even mudcrawlers are more useful in my experience.
UK1
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by UK1 »

Eagle_11 wrote:The lvl2 kamikaze Lancer, kills one unit(if you are really lucky) and then dies, leaving you pondering why did you spend so much time leveling one horseman into it.
THANK YOU! Jesus.
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Gyra_Solune
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Gyra_Solune »

Okay let's look at things from the other end: what units will kill a horseman if you charge into it? It has 38 HP - exactly as much as the Heavy Infantry, and while it has -20% weakness to pierce, it resists blade 20% and impact 30%.

The Drake Clasher obviously is a bad idea to charge. If it hits all four times the Clasher will even outright kill a charging Horseman at night. Even then, though, provided it's daytime, a Horseman can just barely kill the Clasher if it hits both times, while taking "only" 18 damage from that one hit (again this is why the Horseman even has the damage setup as 9-2 instead of 18-1 - if it were 18-1 it could literally run around insta-killing units while taking no damage to where it even is favorable against the biggest and tankiest spear user in the game - with that 9-2 it at least will be hit once at the very least when making that offense to make it marginally riskier).

It's entirely safe to charge a Drake Fighter if it isn't daytime - and the Horseman can come out on top even if it is. The Fighter is getting a 14-3 against the Horseman's 24-2: while the Fighter can kill the Horseman in retaliation, this hinges on the Horseman missing and the Fighter hitting all three attacks. If the Horseman does not miss, then even in that retaliation from a decent melee unit like the Drake Fighter, it is only down about 33% of its HP.

If a Dwarvish Fighter is Strong, then it can just barely take down the Horseman in retaliation - however, if the Horseman itself is Strong, it can just barely take down the Fighter as well, in a similar position to the Drake Fighter, but compounded by how the dwarf isn't doing more damage at day while being more resilient.

A Dwarvish Guardsman can actually defeat the Horseman on the defense but only, again, if it is Strong and it hits all three times. Since the Horseman cannot outright destroy the Guardsman no matter what the conditions are, it is decidedly never a good idea to charge that guy.

Once more, a Strong Elvish Fighter can just barely strike down the Horseman since it'll be doing 10-4 in that situation.

If for some weird reason you're charging a Goblin Spearman at night, then it has the capacity to kill the Horseman on the rebound. It cannot do so during the day though, and in fact will die in one strike, though at night if it evades once it's in the clear (provided it's not Weak)

Gryphon Rider is the same kill or be killed scenario mentioned with others before, even with the Horseman's blade resist.

Same with the Cavalryman as long as it is Strong.

Heavy Infantryman is also never a good idea to charge - even with that impact resist, the HI overpowers the Horseman who cannot feasibly kill it back. It can only do so during the day, though. Wose is pretty much the same.

Horseman v. Horseman all depends on luck and traits.

Spearman is kill or be killed as can be easily predicted. However, it's much more in the Spearman's favor due to First Strike, since it can get two fatal hits in first. If it misses though, the Horseman will get rid of it.

Strong Arif can do it, and can just barely resist an ordinary charge, though a Strong Horseman will overpower the Arif again.

Khaiyal is extremely dangerous to charge because even at night, that lance can insta-gib the Horseman before the Horseman can potentially kill it, but if it misses the Khaiyal is toast.

Merman Fighter is much the same as the Spearman. Probably do not charge this guy especially since it's almost always in terrain it has 60% evade in. However it lacks First Strike and takes three hits to take down the charging horseman.

A Strong Grunt can do it at night but again why are you charging an orc at night, same with Orcish Leader, Skirmisher, and Skeleton


So. there we have it. There are only two (three if you factor in traits) units who will outright kill the Horseman if it tries to charge it, with no chance for the Horseman to possibly kill it. There's six kill or be killed units who can defeat the Horseman on the counter but only if it doesn't die first - of those, only two are really against the Horseman's odds, the Khaiyal and Spearman since they come out on top if they don't miss - the other four require the Horseman missing to survive. There are four more if you factor in traits, and five if you are talking about being really bad and charging a unit at an unfavorable time of day. For a Lancer I think that cuts away everyone except for the Clasher, but again it's actually entirely possible for the Horseman to cut down the Clasher entirely during the daytime

I would not say therefore that a Horseman or especially a Lancer is going to die immediately. Charging the vast majority of units in the game most likely awards the kill to the Horseman, with six to ten of them being a contest hinging entirely on probability which it is imperative to manipulate to your advantage. If you pay attention to traits it's even okay, if risky, to charge at the Arif and Cavalryman in their favored times of day.
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Eagle_11
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Eagle_11 »

All of these are made under the assumption that:
1. The horseman actually hits something.
2. It's a 1v1 versus scenario happening at an remote corner of the map where nothing else will come by to finish the horseman at next turn.
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Gyra_Solune
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Gyra_Solune »

I mean yes, you could miss your attack. You can miss with any attack, ever, and that might falter your plans. This is a game about examining probability in conjunction with strategy. Decisions are made based on what has the highest probability of success. And your opponent is bound to those same rules of probability. It's entirely possible that even with probability on your side, you lose. I know perfectly well! I once had a half-health Ulfserker sitting on a hill, who was then attacked by a full-health Fencer on advantageous terrain, pretty sure it was daytime too. Well, the Ulfserker won that engagement and the opponent quit right then and there! It was kind of silly, but that happens. Sometimes the dice roll in your favor in exorbitant ways, sometimes they don't. It's the nature of probability.

Horsemen work best when you use them at the center or at the absolute fringes of your formation, so to speak. If they get flanked, they're in trouble - so you don't let them get flanked. You attack the most forward-facing units your opponent has, and if it falls, you replace it with other units to simultaneously advance and protect your more vulnerable and valuable units. But you also need to plan for what happens if your attack does not succeed, because that is always a very real possibility. It is perhaps the big feature that a probability-based system brings - it causes strategy to revolve not just around what the optimal offensive solution is, but in what sort of shape you will be if you fail. You should not place yourself in a do-or-die scenario because someone who plans around the possibility of failure will adapt to when they do inevitably miss what they were expecting to hit, and come out stronger than if their plan entirely falls apart from a miss. The Horseman is a do-or-die unit tactically, but not strategically, where it's just as much of a piece to play as anything else - it's not less or more prone to the whims of chance than any other unit, barring quirks with how that interacts with turn order and the balance of damage desirability of defense vs offense. It can be arranged where it has the greatest possibility of success, but like every other unit, it must also be arranged in a place where it's not completely messed up by failure.
UK1
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by UK1 »

Gyra_Solune wrote:I mean yes, you could miss your attack. You can miss with any attack, ever, and that might falter your plans. This is a game about examining probability in conjunction with strategy. Decisions are made based on what has the highest probability of success. And your opponent is bound to those same rules of probability. It's entirely possible that even with probability on your side, you lose. I know perfectly well! I once had a half-health Ulfserker sitting on a hill, who was then attacked by a full-health Fencer on advantageous terrain, pretty sure it was daytime too. Well, the Ulfserker won that engagement and the opponent quit right then and there! It was kind of silly, but that happens. Sometimes the dice roll in your favor in exorbitant ways, sometimes they don't. It's the nature of probability.

Horsemen work best when you use them at the center or at the absolute fringes of your formation, so to speak. If they get flanked, they're in trouble - so you don't let them get flanked. You attack the most forward-facing units your opponent has, and if it falls, you replace it with other units to simultaneously advance and protect your more vulnerable and valuable units. But you also need to plan for what happens if your attack does not succeed, because that is always a very real possibility. It is perhaps the big feature that a probability-based system brings - it causes strategy to revolve not just around what the optimal offensive solution is, but in what sort of shape you will be if you fail. You should not place yourself in a do-or-die scenario because someone who plans around the possibility of failure will adapt to when they do inevitably miss what they were expecting to hit, and come out stronger than if their plan entirely falls apart from a miss. The Horseman is a do-or-die unit tactically, but not strategically, where it's just as much of a piece to play as anything else - it's not less or more prone to the whims of chance than any other unit, barring quirks with how that interacts with turn order and the balance of damage desirability of defense vs offense. It can be arranged where it has the greatest possibility of success, but like every other unit, it must also be arranged in a place where it's not completely messed up by failure.
Luck is relevant here because the Horseman is VERY luck reliant. Just saying. Luck is more relevant to discuss with this unit because more can go wrong with deviant luck than with most other units.

Even the thunderer is arguably less luck reliant because of the retal the horseman might endure.
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Velensk »

Horsemen do suffer badly when things go wrong but I find that their effectiveness is worth the risk a good amount of the time.

It's worth noting, that if the drakes are simply playing clashers and saurians I'd never recruit the horseman. However, it does not change the fact that I do still find them useful against drakes under other circumstances. I also still find them useful against rebels who aren't going wose heavy and knalgans regardless.
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UK1
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by UK1 »

Velensk wrote:Horsemen do suffer badly when things go wrong but I find that their effectiveness is worth the risk a good amount of the time.

It's worth noting, that if the drakes are simply playing clashers and saurians I'd never recruit the horseman. However, it does not change the fact that I do still find them useful against drakes under other circumstances. I also still find them useful against rebels who aren't going wose heavy and knalgans regardless.
So you would charge a Drake Fighter? Because charging a Drake Fighter, for instance, if it's strong there's a decent shot the Horseman will die. And there's a far greater chance that the Drake will inflict two shots than the Horseman will inflict two shots. A quick glance into Wesnoth shows that if the Drake inflicts two and the Horseman only inflicts one, the Horseman will get the worst of it.

I just can't for the life of me fathom how this unit is worth a quarter of your OR.
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by Velensk »

You rarely open against an enemy with a horseman unless you're fine with the enemy sticking around to kill it.

You hit the drake with one spearmen and then you have a 70/60% chance to kill it without taking a single point of damage and even if you miss you have another 60/70% chance to kill it while it gets only a single shot back.
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UK1
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Re: What are the worst units in the game

Post by UK1 »

Velensk wrote:You rarely open against an enemy with a horseman unless you're fine with the enemy sticking around to kill it.

You hit the drake with one spearmen and then you have a 70/60% chance to kill it without taking a single point of damage and even if you miss you have another 60/70% chance to kill it while it gets only a single shot back.
"So when would I use this 23 gold unit?"

"Are you CRAZY? You can't just USE the 23 gold unit. You need to use a 14 gold unit WITH it or it's terrible!"

Yes, this sounds like a truly amazing unit. Thank god they're only 20 gold in recall because they're getting more cost prohibitive by the minute.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.
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