The Saurian Tribalist MP faction (aka drakes) is overpowered

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:

The Saurian Tribalist MP faction (aka drakes) is overpowered

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

Skirmisher. Heals. 5-3 magical. 60% defense in most interesting terrains. 6 moves. Only 16 gold cost. Assassinate the enemy leader (and some of their other units on the way - skirmisher lets all the tribalists attack the same unit of their choice, which would probably be one with weak/no ranged attack). They can't stop you. The magical ability means it doesn't matter what terrain the defenders are in. I have done this a number of times by just recruiting 6 Saurian Tribalists. They're chaotic, and on small maps, reach the enemy leader in the night-time. Very effective strategy. It probably doesn't work quite as well on larger maps or maps with more than two players, but I would guess it would still work. Saurian Tribalists are decent scouts, too, as long as the villages aren't too sparse.

Compare them to Elvish Shamans, which are a powerful unit in their own way - 2 less cost, much better ranged damage, faster, can maneuver better with 6 moves and skirmisher. True, they only have 18 hitpoints, but their 60% defense combined with healing each other makes up for that enough for this strategy.

One possibility is reducing their magic damage to 4-3, and increasing their cost to approximately 17. Another is to remove their skirmisher ability, which also would make sense because another unit's name, "Saurian Skirmisher", seems to imply that only that unit type is good at skirmishing.

The attachments are saves/replays of me killing the enemy human players with Saurian Tribalists. They are both using 80% XP, where an intelligent Saurian Tribalist can level up by killing two enemies.
Attachments
Charge_Turn_6-saurian_tribalist-rush-winning.zip
I actually got my leader killed later in this one, but that was just avoidable carelessness. The leader I picked had too few hitpoints.
(6.4 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
Blitz_Turn_5-saurian_tribalist-rush-about-to-win.zip
(5.32 KiB) Downloaded 127 times
telly
Posts: 260
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 5:07 am

Post by telly »

This doesn't really work very well at all. Your opponents in those replays, didn't seem to have any idea how to play.
Shade
Posts: 1111
Joined: April 18th, 2004, 11:17 pm

I have been tempted to remove skirmish

Post by Shade »

I have been tempted to remove skirmish... I'll bring it up (Maybe take their HP up to 20)
Note to forum users: You are in a maze of twisty little passages
pg
Posts: 201
Joined: September 20th, 2004, 4:57 pm

Post by pg »

While this is a pretty good strategy you will probably not want to use it vs a good player. Saurians have so little hp that once you lose a few you can be in serious trouble. In these replays your opponents either divided their forces too much or didn't attack well. There is a replay of this strategy being used in the tournament but I forget what match it was. Olof vs someone in the playoffs I think.

This strategy isn't useful at all vs undead or northerner with their level 0s. In general rushing with anything on Blitz or Charge vs worse players will likely get you a quick win because they are totally unprepared for it. Rushing really isn't possible in Wesnoth except for a few maps(Blitz, Charge, Morituri, anything small really even random maps). Personally I like small maps and the fact you can rush on them because it brings another strategy into play and makes games quite interesting. I get excited when using a rush or defending against one. I rarely have that happen in a normal game. I especially like it because then games become usually about who can kill each other's leader first rather than a war of attrition where the one with the most economic might will likely prevail over an extended period of time.
Last edited by pg on December 20th, 2004, 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:

Re: I have been tempted to remove skirmish

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

telly wrote:This doesn't really work very well at all. Your opponents in those replays, didn't seem to have any idea how to play.
True enough, but if I were them I don't know what I would have done to stop the Tribalists.
Shade wrote:I have been tempted to remove skirmish...
Yes; I think the reason Saurian Skirmishers and Fencers can't do quite the same thing is magical. The enemy can keep their units in high defense terrain to help protect from the swarms - but not against Saurian Tribalists - the best they can do is:
1) All out assault on the Tribalists. Likely not quick enough, or
2) Surround their leader with defending units. A serious tactical disadvantage. Also, the Tribalists could, if they wanted, go and scout, taking most of the villages on the map (because they're already more than halfway across the map).
Shade wrote:(Maybe take their HP up to 20)
You could, but I don't think it's necessary. It's hard to tell how good they'd be without skirmisher, but they still have 60% defense (less of the time, though), and heals. Maybe it would be appropriate to make it higher, though. For reference, Saurian Skirmisher has 22 HP.

P.S. If skirmisher is removed for the Tribalist, don't forget to remove skirmisher from the Tribalist's upgrades (assuming that's the right thing to do, which it might not be)
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
pg
Posts: 201
Joined: September 20th, 2004, 4:57 pm

Re: I have been tempted to remove skirmish

Post by pg »

Shade wrote:I have been tempted to remove skirmish...
I don't think that's needed. :) Really their HP is so low...
Invisible Philosopher wrote:True enough, but if I were them I don't know what I would have done to stop the Tribalists.
Fall back around your leader to protect him, delay their attacks as much as possible, and send 1-2 units forward to get villages. Also you should buy the cheapest units you can, once you see a saurian rush coming. Cheap units delay, taking up lots of hex spaces(negating skirmisher), and cheaper units have more HP which makes it possible to absorb more damage(needed since magical attacks hit 70%).
Yes; I think the reason Saurian Skirmishers and Fencers can't do quite the same thing is magical.
Yes, that is certainly helpful since they are likely to do lots of damage. Fencer rushing can work too but it's harder. Ability to do damage, speed, and stuff like skirmisher, magic, etc are much more useful in rushing than HP, resistance, defense, etc. You can buy 6 tribalists with 100g and only 5 fencers so being cheap is important too.
telly
Posts: 260
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 5:07 am

Post by telly »

Yeah their hp is really, really pathetic. Take a red mage or a sorceress as leader and they can kill 3 or 4 by themselves. A tribalist rush might work against a player once or twice but they'll soon catch on. If you're prepared, its just free experience points really.
Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

telly wrote:Yeah their hp is really, really pathetic. Take a red mage or a sorceress as leader and they can kill 3 or 4 by themselves.
Good point, it could use a bit of increasing.
telly wrote:If you're prepared, its just free experience points really.
If a rush fails, you're pretty much going to lose anyway...
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
casueps
Posts: 34
Joined: June 24th, 2004, 4:02 pm

Post by casueps »

I don't think their attack should be made weaker, I find 5-3 quite weak now, because it won't kill an enemy and next turn they are getting killed by strong melee units because of low HP. Also their skirmisher ability seems to be natural for their race.

Perhaps they could be made more expensive or decrease their movement points tough.
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

casueps wrote:I find 5-3 quite weak now, because it won't kill an enemy
OK, try 5-15 now. (That's what you get when you have five Tribalists around a unit.)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
User avatar
Dragonking
Inactive Developer
Posts: 591
Joined: November 6th, 2004, 10:45 am
Location: Poland

Post by Dragonking »

Hmm, they are chaotic so eaven 7-15 during night. They HP is really low, but good defence rate compare it. IMO removing skirmish is a good idea, Tribalist isn't Skirmisher
Neoriceisgood
Art Developer
Posts: 2220
Joined: April 2nd, 2004, 10:19 pm
Contact:

Post by Neoriceisgood »

Or you can just use undead and laugh at their damage =)
Fortify
Posts: 73
Joined: August 16th, 2004, 2:46 am
Location: Canada

Post by Fortify »

Neoriceisgood wrote:Or you can just use undead and laugh at their damage =)
Yes, Skeleton Archers :evil: should have fun with these guys similar cost with 60 vs 10 resistance! Skeletons, Ghouls and even Walking Corpses can take lots of hits with these guys before pounding back with melee.

But if I was the Drake/Saurian player I would probably recruit differently, Burners :twisted: perhaps, against an undead opponant.

So I think this is a very viable strategy that people need to gaurd against carefully.
The shovel saves more lives than the sword.
Circon
Posts: 1200
Joined: November 17th, 2003, 4:26 am
Location: Right behind Gwiti, coding

Post by Circon »

Fortify wrote:
Neoriceisgood wrote:Or you can just use undead and laugh at their damage =)
Yes, Skeleton Archers :evil: should have fun with these guys similar cost with 60 vs 10 resistance! Skeletons, Ghouls and even Walking Corpses can take lots of hits with these guys before pounding back with melee.

But if I was the Drake/Saurian player I would probably recruit differently, Burners :twisted: perhaps, against an undead opponant.
One word. Ghosts.
Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

What about ghosts? They take massive damage (compared to their HP) from fire, and cost about as much each as the Burners, which have more than twice the HP and twice the damage on their attack to make up for their taking twice as much damage from the relevant damage type than Ghosts.

Besides, it's off topic. Obviously, Saurian Tribalists are no good for killing an enemy undead leader, so you wouldn't use them then.
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
Post Reply