Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

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Naron
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Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Naron »

The title is very clear. Wesnoth will evolve? I mean Wesnoth has not changed much in recent years (I mean the graphics perspective).
I play Neverwinter Nights 1 and it has a 3D graphics even if it is old.
Will ever be a 3D Wesnoth? Or at least pseudo-3D?
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Velensk
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Velensk »

Do you want it to?

I honestly have no desire to see Wesnoth in 3D, I don't see how it would add anything (and being of the preference that I am I can see a bunch of things it would take away). It would also take a great deal of work which in a project nobodies paying for is paramount to everyone seeing a strong need for it (which I don't believe they will), and would make it so that all of the art for all UMC would have to be redone from scratch and using technology that the former makers of the art may not be familiar with.

For these reasons I don't believe that it will ever happen but if you really want it to happen you may just have to start your own project.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by iceiceice »

y it might make it run badly on phones and netbooks

that said i think maps with 3d architecture might be cool but you would need fancy wml or revamped tunnel tags
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Naron »

I understand what you mean, but I wonder if Wesnoth will forever remain in its current state.
A 3D Wesnoth would be at least an evolution.
@iceiceice: not necessarily. Modern phones can run 3D games.
And NWN 1 is 3D, but it can run on older systems. I would not be able to start a project, because I do not have the time and skills for this. But the game must somehow evolve into a more modern graphics.
There are open-source 3D games? If so, Wesnoth could become 3D. If not, Wesnoth could be the first open-source game with 3D graphics.
These are strictly my opinions, nothing more. But I wonder about the future of Wesnoth.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Velensk »

The thing is, I really don't think it would be an evolution.

That said, it's definitely possible. Possibility isn't an issue. And there are plenty of open source projects with 3D graphics.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by iceiceice »

the real issue may be making new art. 3d modelling is not easy, you would need an army of new artists who will do this for free. good luck.

i think the future of wesnoth is that it will always appeal to players who 1) want to make and share good campaigns with good story and content which is not corporate trash, 2) want hardcore strategy.

people like this don't care about 3d graphics. you don't need 3d graphics to have a future.
hell, look at dwarf fortress.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Turuk »

Naron wrote: And NWN 1 is 3D, but it can run on older systems. I would not be able to start a project, because I do not have the time and skills for this.But the game must somehow evolve into a more modern graphics.
You have compared a game with funded graphics to Wesnoth, which is not an apt comparison, and your own comment highlights the challenges facing such an idea.

There are plenty of excellent games that don't have 3D graphics, denoting that as the next evolutionary step is a bit of a stretch.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Naron »

But there are open-source 3D games like Velensk said. So it is possible.
Velensk, maybe you're right about 3D. I myself have seen many very bad 3D games. But I think that a game with a well designed 3D graphics is a real evolution.
About the art: it is possible to add the third dimension to the current graphics? I do not know anything about art, maybe my question is stupid. For example, it is possible to change an unit's sprite (say, an Elvish Fighter) so that it becomes 3D?
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Velensk »

3D sprites is a contradiction of terms.

About the closest you'll get would be something like Final Fantasy Tactics. Final Fantasy Tactics does a good job of simulating 3Dness with sprite art but then it needs to as part of it's gameplay. Wesnoth doesn't need to for it's gameplay and art wise you can simulate it just as well.

However, the essence of how a computer interprets/draws 3D and Sprites is completely different. They both come up with an image but how the computer remembers what it is and comes up with all the animations and such are different. You could use a 3d art program to come up with sprites but it wouldn't actually be better/different than what happens when you draw it as a sprite.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Iris »

Converting our sprites to textured 3D models would be pretty much the equivalent of turning a bicycle into a commercial airplane. You’d need to re-make everything by hand, possibly using the existing sprites as a general reference. And all pixel artists on board who don’t have a 3D modelling/texturing background would have to completely relearn everything from scratch.
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Crendgrim
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Crendgrim »

I disagree with your idea that 3D > 2D. There are a lot of 2D and pseudo-3D games that I enjoy much more than those with 3D graphics.
The 2D sprites define Wesnoth. It's one of the last games which uses pixel art, and it makes it really stand out. I would even go so far and say that a 3D Wesnoth would be a devolution from the current state, except if we were getting amazing models (to replace the high quality pixel art). And getting those, and having those implemented in a way that Wesnoth still runs on not-state-of-the-art hardware, would be a greater challenge than Wesnoth currently could handle, I think.
Also, for a pure strategy game I don't see where the 3D vision would come in handy, not to mention the implicated problems: You would still have to have way too huge units in comparison to the landscape, or it would be hard to actually see them; and that would just look wrong. Caves and cliffs would be interesting as well.

So.. I hope Wesnoth stays in its current style. Maybe enhanced and improved (as it has happened during the years), but not completely different.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Dugi »

Let me mention a few technical advantages that a 3D version of wesnoth would bring (when you're speaking about the problems all the time):
1. Separate entities of body and gear. You will just need one model for elf, one model for female elf, and the rest can be just done by changing gear and size. This is like frankensteining system led to perfection, without drawbacks.
2. Shared animations. Most wesnoth and UMC units are humanoid. If the game was 3D, they would share the same set of animations. Result would be that most units would have tons of various animations, with much less work done on them. And with 3D animations, you don't need to draw a new thing as with 2D animations. The general lack of animations in UMC and sometimes even in core would cease to be.
3. Compatibility. 3D models can be exported/imported between many 3D editors, while 2D sprites can't be ported between game because the size and general style differs greatly. There are loads of open source 3D models on the internet.

And counter argument to the claim that it would no longer run on old machines - 3D models with complex geometry (too many surfaces) are a general problem, but they should and frequently do use bumpmaps and such things that make a model with few surfaces appear to be much more complex. The code can easily support turning these bumpmaps off, making the game much less resource-heavy without needing extra models.

And I know that basically all the people on these forums (including me, ofc) don't mind 2D graphics, but there are people who do. Some people would prefer to play many of those soulless 3D games, just for the sake of appearance.

As one of those people who tell their noble bullcrap said (approximately): If you lack the motivation to reach the goal, you start to see obstacles in the way.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Crendgrim »

Dugi wrote:1. Separate entities of body and gear. You will just need one model for elf, one model for female elf, and the rest can be just done by changing gear and size. This is like frankensteining system led to perfection, without drawbacks.
While this may be true, you still would need to re-create both models and all gear, while we already sit on a huge repository of high-quality sprites.
Dugi wrote:And counter argument to the claim that it would no longer run on old machines - 3D models with complex geometry (too many surfaces) are a general problem, but they should and frequently do use bumpmaps and such things that make a model with few surfaces appear to be much more complex. The code can easily support turning these bumpmaps off, making the game much less resource-heavy without needing extra models.
Slightly off-topic: Can you show me any open source project which has detailed models, and which at the same time supports older hardware? I looked for one once, and didn't have luck finding anything.
Then again, that is pretty on topic if there are none: If it was so easy as you portrait it, it would have been done already – right?
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Dixie »

Naron wrote:The title is very clear. Wesnoth will evolve? I mean Wesnoth has not changed much in recent years (I mean the graphics perspective).
For the sake of exactitude, I just want to point how wrong this opening statement is. Wesnoth's graphics have evolved TONS in recent years. Sure, maybe the graphics engine hasn't changed much, it is still 2D etc. etc., but the graphics themselves have really leaped forward. Just look at older versions' screenshots, or in shadowmaster's blog, for instance. Terrains have been completely revamped for the better with the 1.8 release. Drake sprites have been entirely redone. Portraits have almost all be re/done in excessively high-quality painterly style, horses have recently been redone, the awesome huge fire dragon, many animations have been added, etc. And they are not even finished yet, there are many more revamps and animations to be done. And I think this is much more the objective than trashing everything that has been done so far to switch to 3d... Wesnoth's graphics are going towards the extremely evolved, high-end 2d graphics. It is miles ahead of the old snes-era 2d art. Maybe high-quality 3d looks more modern or impressive, but one must not diminish the value of high-quality 2d. And it gives an old-school feel to the game that really adds to the experience, imho.
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Re: Will be Wesnoth forever 2D-only?

Post by Naron »

Dixie, I was referring strictly to 2D vs 3D, as the topic title says. I saw the pictures on ShadowM's blog and I agree that Wesnoth has evolved considerably in comparison with the past.
Evolution is the keyword. Why Wesnoth must remain forever as a 2D-only game? You want to say that in 2050 Wesnoth will be still a 2D game?
But it is possible at least a 2.5D Wesnoth?
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