Discussion about elves

[Ranger]

I've looked into the different forum sections but in the end I will post this here. If any moderator think I have mistaken please move this thread where it belongs.

The idea is that because of their natural swiftness on feet and dexterity the emergence of fencer type of fighters within elven ranks is even more likely than in humans (which have footpads,fencers and thieves packed in one faction). But nooo, they all seem to be some kind of humans which trying hard to act like elves. I think it is so, because of the fact that developers of the fraction were mainly humans. (right? ) Also their fraction was one of the first to be made together with humans and orcs(correct me if im wrong). Anyway...

Ok, the question is: "Do you think that elves of wesnoth could have been designed better?" By better I intend to say "closer to the true spirit of this race".

Well sure they could have. They are how they are largely due to historical reasons, and at no point has it been deemed worth the trouble to radically change them to better match the lore.

Nice to have my suspicions confirmed. Yes. Good.

[zookeeper]

Well sure they could have. They are how they are largely due to historical reasons, and at no point has it been deemed worth the trouble to radically change them to better match the lore.

[Dixie]

1) It's faction, without an "r".

2) They are already pretty swift... in forests. As for dexterity, they already have more strikes than the average human and all have bow attacks. What would you have liked, giving them 90% defence on all terrains?

3) Footpad and thieves are in the Knalgan faction while fencers are in the Loyalist. So saying all three units are in the same faction is just plain wrong.

4) Even then, these three units are specialized, niche units. You don't really see them that often (footpads being a bit apart on this issue, but still). Even if objectively, yes, they are three distinct unit types, I'd be surprised if on the field of battle they represented 10% of their faction's armed forces, even put together. (Ok, once again, exception for the footpad among the dwarves). On the other hand, elven units (I'm especially referring to fighters, archers and shamans here), while less swift and dextrous and whatever then these units, are still much more so than anything else these factions can muster, while easily representing 60+% of their faction's units on the field. Hence, they are much more seen and represented, they feel more common among their kin then the elusive trio you compare them to.

5) "Closer to the true spirit of the race"? What is the true spirit of the race, exactly? There are multiple "true spirits of the race", depending if you ask Tolkien, D&D, Dragon Lance, or whatever else you might refer to. And what if Wesnoth's "true spirit of the race" was simply different then whatever you were referring to?

[Ranger]

Well sure they could have. They are how they are largely due to historical reasons, and at no point has it been deemed worth the trouble to radically change them to better match the lore.

Good answer. Unfortunately the only way now to implement these changes is to create brand new Era, which is no easy task.

I think you were just sleepy when posted that.

[Dixie]

Why, because it systematically invalidates everything you've written so far and don't like it? Oh well. Have fun redesigning the elves like you think they ought to be. It's not like I care all that much, anyway...

[Ranger]

An inconsistency lorekeepers of wesnoth have overlooked: even though it says that elves dabbling in magics become succeptible to the contact with iron there seem to be an exeption in the Elven Lord that can weild sword and use magic at once.

[zookeeper]

An inconsistency lorekeepers of wesnoth have overlooked: even though it says that elves dabbling in magics become succeptible to the contact with iron there seem to be an exeption in the Elven Lord that can weild sword and use magic at once.

Well, no one's said their swords contain any iron, right?

[Ranger]

An inconsistency lorekeepers of wesnoth have overlooked: even though it says that elves dabbling in magics become succeptible to the contact with iron there seem to be an exeption in the Elven Lord that can weild sword and use magic at once.

Well, no one's said their swords contain any iron, right?

DERP.

[Blarumyrran]

Whenever a lumberjack comes across a wose, the latter will take great care not to crush his body. The bones, intact and strong, are to be given to the elven allies of the wosekind so that they may be crafted into swords.

[alluton]

Warning: This forest contains dangerous trees. Any person left here unattended will be killt and manufactured into part of elven warmachine. Owner of this forest takes no responsibility should you instead be used as a bow string.

[wolkenwand]

So the elven sword are made from lumberjack's bone? awww thats cute

[sur.nhm]

Nice fluff, except that, you know, bone isn't as sharp as iron. But who said the elves had to use iron? They could any other sort of metal that, while not as good as iron, still works, such as bronze.

[Ranger]

Ok, this is funny but still the question is left unaswered. The fact that elves that getting closer to their fairy nature become less...human suggest that they are more different from us than their appearence would suggest. It would be good to specify that in the description of the elf mages line.

Edit: sur.nhm <- he has the point.

[Dugi]

They could any other sort of metal that, while not as good as iron, still works, such as bronze.

Why bronze? There are dozens of other metals that are harder than iron. If you just check it in wikipedia, you'll easily find that iron is not a particularly hard metal, and metals like iridium or tungsten (also with cool names) are much harder. Although the hardest steel alloy is still harder than these, no metal is harder than chromium. Weapons without iron can be even better and was known in times of old, even old Chinese used chromium to coat their weapons to make them harder. We could say that Elvish Lords do the same (buying these weapons from dwarves maybe). Obsidian could be also used to create brutally sharp blades (but it was used only for spears and arrows in the past).

The fact that elves that getting closer to their fairy nature become less...human suggest that they are more different from us than their appearence would suggest.

Anatomically, they should be the same, all mammals have quite a similar anatomy. Visually, fairies are considered human like, but somewhat overly beautiful and eerie. So, I'd say that they are physically the very similar, just their magical nature changed. The note about the winged beings that they are creatures from both worlds explains that sufficiently, IMO.

[Telchin]

The funny thing is how people discuss what other metals elves use, when the same dialogue that mentions their vulnerability to iron also mentions how they still use it:

Code: Select all

        [message]
            speaker="Mal M'Brin"
            message = _ "I broke their chains. They bound me, the accursed humans. Bound me! Kidnapped me to raise undead for them. Menaced me with cold iron... ahh, the iron on my skin, it burned, it burned!"
        [/message]

        [message]
            speaker="Deoran"
            message= _ "What is this? Elves bear steel swords."
        [/message]

        [message]
            speaker="Ethiliel"
            message= _ "They are but warriors. All elves feel the shadow of iron, and to those who walk our higher paths it is a bane, interfering with our magic. But this touches on mysteries that are not for men to know, human. I bind you never to speak of it."
        [/message]

I understood this as the iron only being harmful to the evish magi, with soldiers being unaffected. That said Kalenz uses both a sword and magic, so perhaps this bit of info in TSG should be changed to not contradict other campaigns. IIRC it's not TSG's only inconstistency with elvish physiology in other camapaigns - Mebrin is said to remember Haldric's betrayal, despite the campaign taking place after HttT, which would make Mebrin well beyond elvish lifespan (unless he drank same potion as Kalenz or became a lich before the campaign begins). My guess is that the lore of Wesnoth elves wasn't defined yet when the campaign was written and the author was basing his vision of elves on different franchises (cold iron is effective against fairies in some folklore, Tolkien's elves are ageless).
Please don't take it as me bashing TSG. I think it's the best beginner campaign. It would be just easier to change this inconsistent dialogue in TSG, than change all other mainline campaigns to match them.