[mainline] Undead trait and healing

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Jeffers0n
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Jeffers0n »

I think healing magic just speeds up the natural healing process, so it could just regenerate old bones, making healing undead more realistic.

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PsychoticKittens
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by PsychoticKittens »

Technically necromancy is a form of healing magic.

Dr. Necromancer: "What's that, you died? Let me fix that for you."

If I was allied with a necromancer anyway, what's the problem with using some necromancy to help a bro out?
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alluton
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by alluton »

PsychoticKittens wrote:
If I was allied with a necromancer anyway, what's the problem with using some necromancy to help a bro out?
Tell that to Drogan.
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-Flameslash

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Thrawn
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Thrawn »

I can just see white mages summoning calcium out of nothing to fix undead units. I kinda like it. In my view of the situation, white mages aren't necessarily using 'holy' magic to heal people, just some magically applied biology and medicine. That could be used to help undead people too, as any improvement as to how their decaying body functions could be considered healing...

I'd be willing to move this to User's Forum or Off-Topic if we want to, but I'm also cool with it here ^_^
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

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Drakefriend
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Drakefriend »

Explanation:
Healing magic does affect the body, not the "life-force" itself. If you heal the shattered skull of a skeleton or the chopped-off arm of a Walking Corpse, you receive a more intact skeleton/corpse, but it will not be restored to real life, or "exorcised", which would require different magic (i.e. your attacks against undead enemies).
After far too long an absence, I have returned.
According to the quiz 100% Silver Mage (85% Archmage, 75% Shyde, 67% Flameheart and Ancient Wose,58% Assassin, Troll Warrior and Berserker). And my top score is exactly how I see myself.

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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

It is the dark magic that moves dead body, not the body itself is moving because, well, you cant move the bones without muscles attached. :wink: And though it is possible for a white mage to repair damaged bones and put together dead flesh he cannot restore the magic that makes it move.

p.s.Yes, i think we should move this thread into User's section.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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A Guy
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by A Guy »

I don't see a mace directly damaging the magic connection.
I'm just... a guy...
I'm back for now, I might get started on some work again.

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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

Why not? If the magic can influence the material world it means that at some point it has to pass from an ethereal entity into a physical manifestation in order to influence the enchanted object. The destruction of the object itself does not destroy magical energies (1rst law of arcane dynamics :D) but breaks the bounds put by the sorcerer. :eng:
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

JaMiT
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by JaMiT »

Ranger wrote:And though it is possible for a white mage to repair damaged bones and put together dead flesh he cannot restore the magic that makes it move.
He cannot? Does Wesnoth draw a distinction between "good magic" and "evil magic"? Some mythologies do that, while others simply have a single "magic" that is tapped into by both "good users" and "evil users". If there is but a single "magic", it would not be contradictory for one mage to be able to feed raw magical energy into another's spell, regardless of ethical inclinations. Of course, "able" and "willing" are two different things... ;)

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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

Its not question whether he want or not to do it. He just doesnt know how it was made in the first place. Its like asking a surgeon to fix your motorbike. Yes his work is to fix what is broken but still these objectives are very different from one another, just like living body and artificial construct.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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Drakefriend
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Drakefriend »

The fact that healers can heal undead as well as the living in the game leads to two conclusions:
1. Healers can heal undead as well as the living in the setting
2. It is a gameplay abstraction.
Several users, including myself, have suggested that case 1 is possible, if at least some healing magic works on the "body", not on the "soul" or on the "life-force". You, however, seem to assume that this is impossible because you would have to affect the soul. I do not think there is any direct proof for any of the assertions, but I think this supports our position:
Skeletons are very vulnerable to impact. This indicates that you can defeat undead by destroying their body - undead bone meal would be as dangerous as truely dead bone meal, and a spell that restores bones, or mechanically reinforcing the bones, would benefit a skeleton. Walking corpses and ghouls (the latter being not actually dead, but transformed alive) could similarly healed of their physical injuries, you just cannot use spells that restore the life-force.
The only exception are ghosts, as they are (supposed to be, largely) incorporal. But ghosts are enslaved souls, so here, you míght be able to use vitalistic healing, but not corporal healing.
After far too long an absence, I have returned.
According to the quiz 100% Silver Mage (85% Archmage, 75% Shyde, 67% Flameheart and Ancient Wose,58% Assassin, Troll Warrior and Berserker). And my top score is exactly how I see myself.

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pauxlo
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by pauxlo »

The healers can also heal mechanical units (like boats). This is even more absurd.

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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

Drakefriend wrote:The fact that healers can heal undead as well as the living in the game leads to two conclusions:
1. Healers can heal undead as well as the living in the setting
2. It is a gameplay abstraction.
Several users, including myself, have suggested that case 1 is possible, if at least some healing magic works on the "body", not on the "soul" or on the "life-force". You, however, seem to assume that this is impossible because you would have to affect the soul. I do not think there is any direct proof for any of the assertions, but I think this supports our position:
Skeletons are very vulnerable to impact. This indicates that you can defeat undead by destroying their body - undead bone meal would be as dangerous as truely dead bone meal, and a spell that restores bones, or mechanically reinforcing the bones, would benefit a skeleton. Walking corpses and ghouls (the latter being not actually dead, but transformed alive) could similarly healed of their physical injuries, you just cannot use spells that restore the life-force.
The only exception are ghosts, as they are (supposed to be, largely) incorporal. But ghosts are enslaved souls, so here, you míght be able to use vitalistic healing, but not corporal healing.
The common type of healer may restore undead body, but he can only rebuild flesh and bone. Without the necessary spells that bound the soul to the matter it would still be as dead as it can be. In the living thing this is happening naturally but not in the artificially animated creatures like undead. In the way they are more similar to a machine (dead body moved by magic) governed by software (the soul of the living being). That the point why the necromancers are hated thoughout the Wesnoth. Not just because they despoil the graves but because they enslave the souls of the living beings to do their bidding. And not even death can bring you peace for while he has a fragment of the body you where born in, he can bring you back to do his whims.
I think i got carried away a little. :mrgreen:
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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PsychoticKittens
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by PsychoticKittens »

heals +8 turns back time to exactly 8 damage points ago for everything allied nearby.
Unless they're poisoned. Cause poison makes time funky.

Mythos solved. Every healer is a Time Lord.
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Thrawn
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Thrawn »

Moved to a more appropriate venue for theoretical discussion ;)
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

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