[mainline] Undead trait and healing

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Ranger
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[mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

While playing a UMC today (After The Storm) I came to realize how weird is it for a healer to be able to restore hp of undead creatures. I dont have problems with White mage healing orcs or Elven shaman healing dwarfes, but seeing Elven Shide healing skeltons and ghost is...weird. While I understand that capability to heal any friendly unit is "de facto standart" in Wesnoth I wonder if it would be possible to make an exeption for units with undead trait.
As undeads dont have a natural healer this change will not impair fraction balance but just make gameplay more believeable.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?
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Sapient
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Sapient »

Ranger wrote: As undeads dont have a natural healer this change will not impair fraction balance but just make gameplay more believeable.
Undead can already receive allied healing in MP games with multiple teams per side.
As for the realism argument, I can't argue with you on that but there's already a lot of unrealistic things about undead.
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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

Is it even worth posting the idea in this section? Looks like the development of the W mainline has frozen forever. :annoyed:
Last edited by Ranger on August 10th, 2013, 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?
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Pentarctagon
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Pentarctagon »

It could be that instead of healing them in a traditional sense, they are simply consuming the magic and using it to reinforce their existence in the world of the living.
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Sapient »

Ranger wrote:Is it even worth posting the idea in this section? Looks like the development of the W mainline has frozen forever. :annoyed:
Ah, I was speaking in my capacity as a user and forum-goer, not as an official development answer to your suggestion.

But as someone who enjoys the occaisional 2v2 multiplayer game, I can assure you that it would indeed make a difference. And last time I checked, Isar's Cross was the most popular map on the server.

Is it worth posting ideas here? Well, if by "worth" it you mean does an idea have a good probability of being implemented just because someone posted an idea, then the answer is no. If by "worth" you mean bringing about discussion, then yes. If the idea has merit, or disadvantages, those will then be made apparent by the discussion.

As for the future of Wesnoth's mainline development, that is a broad topic that I don't even want to begin to address here now, and I'm not sure I'd be qualified to answer that. But your perception that certain aspects of certain things are essentially frozen in place is admittedly true. Then again, just because a game is an open source project, does that mean its rules should be constantly evolving?
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by JaMiT »

Ranger wrote:As undeads dont have a natural healer this change will not impair fraction balance but just make gameplay more believeable.
Well, if it happens often enough to impair believability, might that not suggest it happens often enough to impact balance?

(Just throwing the thought out there.)
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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Ranger »

Sapient wrote:
Ranger wrote:Is it even worth posting the idea in this section? Looks like the development of the W mainline has frozen forever. :annoyed:
Ah, I was speaking in my capacity as a user and forum-goer, not as an official development answer to your suggestion.

But as someone who enjoys the occaisional 2v2 multiplayer game, I can assure you that it would indeed make a difference. And last time I checked, Isar's Cross was the most popular map on the server.

Is it worth posting ideas here? Well, if by "worth" it you mean does an idea have a good probability of being implemented just because someone posted an idea, then the answer is no. If by "worth" you mean bringing about discussion, then yes. If the idea has merit, or disadvantages, those will then be made apparent by the discussion.

As for the future of Wesnoth's mainline development, that is a broad topic that I don't even want to begin to address here now, and I'm not sure I'd be qualified to answer that. But your perception that certain aspects of certain things are essentially frozen in place is admittedly true. Then again, just because a game is an open source project, does that mean its rules should be constantly evolving?

I understand that nobody has to do anything just because I told so. But it seems that the developers are so afraid to change current fractions that any big idea is almost certianly wont be taken into consideration. Looks like the most vivid branch of W delepoment is UMC. Which is stil nice.
About other question: Let me tell you this: Rules are made to be broken.
I believe that without constant refreshment even the most well build project will decay and die. :eng:
Well, if it happens often enough to impair believability, might that not suggest it happens often enough to impact balance?
(Just throwing the thought out there.)
Of course it is. Its just the question whether it's balance impact big enough to justify it's logic inconsistency.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by sur.nhm »

I think it's of a matter for the Writers' Forum to solve via inventing an interesting piece of fluff more than anything else. After all, WiNR, and why change the balance when you can use the opportunity to flesh Wesnoth's world out instead?
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by JaMiT »

Ranger wrote:But it seems that the developers are so afraid to change current fractions that any big idea is almost certianly wont be taken into consideration.
Well, any idea to change the current factions that has not been tested for balance certainly seems to get summarily shot down. I do not recall any ideas to change the current factions that have been tested for balance, so I don't know what would happen with one of those. My impression, though, is not that the multiplayer developers (not my area) are opposed to change, but that they are opposed to testing other peoples' ideas for change. (Ideas are plentiful; action is scarce.)

Ranger wrote:
JaMiT wrote:Well, if it happens often enough to impair believability, might that not suggest it happens often enough to impact balance?
Of course it is. Its just the question whether it's balance impact big enough to justify it's logic inconsistency.
As sur.nhm pointed out, Wesnoth is a strategy game before being a simulation (WINR) so the default answer would be "yes" until someone (you?) tests it out to see what the balance impact is.
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Crow_T »

A possible system would be where healers damage adjacent undead with heal, but dark adepts could heal undead only at +4, dark sorcerers +8, and you could do something cool with the necromancer/lich possibilities. Their heal could be dark or cold based, damaging adjacent lawful or any living unit. I think this could give a nice dynamic to undead attacking white mages.

But, I guess that is what factions are for, also try looking into Dugi's resource pack to see how it can be done.
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A Guy
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by A Guy »

Are we seriously complaining that healing *magic* working on *undead* is unrealistic?
I'm just... a guy...
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Pentarctagon
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by Pentarctagon »

A Guy wrote:Are we seriously complaining that healing *magic* working on *undead* is unrealistic?
Indeed we are.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by JaMiT »

A Guy wrote:Are we seriously complaining that healing *magic* working on *undead* is unrealistic?
Actually, it was initially about "believable", not "realistic". "Believable" is a bit more reasonable, in my opinion. :)
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by TheCripple »

JaMiT wrote:
A Guy wrote:Are we seriously complaining that healing *magic* working on *undead* is unrealistic?
Actually, it was initially about "believable", not "realistic". "Believable" is a bit more reasonable, in my opinion. :)
Healing magic working on undead is unrealistic. For one thing, it features healing magic, for another it features undead - neither of these are realistic. Granted, healing magic working on living things is also unrealistic, but that doesn't really impact the realism of it working on undead.
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Re: [mainline] Undead trait and healing

Post by A Guy »

Yes, but it's the complaining that's the deal.
I'm just... a guy...
I'm back for now, I might get started on some work again.
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