I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by AxalaraFlame »

People are talking about some scenerios are good some are bad and some does not make sense after all for a long while. I start this topic, hopefully and faithfully, waiting here for many many people to discuss about it, and reform the glory of old kingdom wesnoth. :)

Though, Wesnoth is an autocratic game, which developers are the aristocrats and clergies, while gamers like us are low leveled peasants. That is not a pretty good analogy, since most times we are only gamers, who play, complain, and hardly make efforts, like peasants do not plant crops. :lol2:

However, time is changed. 10 years before, there is nothing here but a desolate forum with few gamers and developers. Now we have thousands of users, hundreds of contributors from all over the planet, hundreds of UMCs for players to pick and play. The problem becomes obvious:
1. we are not lack of campaign makers anymore
2. players pick campaigns
3. mainline campaigns were once upon anonymous, created when we are lack of campaign makers
4. with time changes, some of them became obselete, and players realized two things: First, they found they have abundant campaigns to pick now; Second, they finally found that some old and classical mainline camapigns are awkwardly designed or even hardly make sense, while they play them just because they are made early and added early.
--5-- query: Is it the time for us to reselect our new mainline campaigns, challenge the authority of these so alleged "senior mainline campaigns", and put them under the bright sun, let them bathe with all other UMCs and have a fair and just competition, say, a vote from players, for us to remake a recommended new mainline campign list of Wesnoth?

This topic will surely shake the authority of some senior developers, and I never thought this topic can stand long before get locked; however, I am expressing those words for all men here, and I wish moderators can judge it fairly and wisely, instead of lock it because you feel irritated that someone is doubting about your old and obselete campaign no longer deserves to be a mainline one. :|
Last edited by AxalaraFlame on June 6th, 2012, 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lipk
Developer
Posts: 632
Joined: July 18th, 2011, 1:42 pm

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by lipk »

For the authors of the mainline campaigns, see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Credits . Most of them aren't actual developers, by the way.

Simply kicking something is unlikely to happen. Some campaigns may not be as good as others, but no one is so bad that merely removing it would be beneficiable. As for replacing mainline campaigns, you have to understand that this is a lot of work. Even if you have a rather high quality candidate. Mainline campaigns should be bug-free, grammatically and stylistically perfect in text, good quality graphics etc. Although it's absolutely possible that there're mainline campaigns which are generally not-so-liked by the majority of the developers either, no one cares enough to change it.

By the way, I guess that you made this thread with Eastern Invasion in mind :P I don't like that campaign either. It'd be cool if we could find a good replacement for it. But frankly, I can't think of any UMC which would both fill the role of EI (i.e. long loyalist campaign) and is so clearly superior to EI that it'd worth the work.
This topic will surely shake the authority of some senior developers, and I never thought this topic can stand long before get locked;
Let me quote my all-time favourite moderator:
Gambit wrote:Implying that this thread has an impending lock is going to annoy Gambit. We don't just go around randomly locking things.

User avatar
Telchin
Posts: 330
Joined: December 20th, 2010, 10:01 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Telchin »

I think that the reason fro EI's questionable quality might be the fact that it was one of the first campaigns (mainline since version 0.8, IIRC), so there probably wasn't big competition back then. That said TRoW is from the same time and its storyline is superior to that of EI. I don't think that removing EI would be the best solution, because 1.10 added Dead Water to mainline and in DW your main enemies are minions of Mal-Ravanal from EI, so having DW without EI would be jarring. (Similiarly, SoF, Liberty, LoW and DM are dependant on HttT to make sense, but I believe that nobody wants to kick HttT)

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9740
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by zookeeper »

AxalaraFlame wrote:query: Is it the time for us to reselect our new mainline campaigns
As you know, you don't get to select. Which makes this thread extremely purposeless.

HomerJ
Posts: 812
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 1:22 pm
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by HomerJ »

Dude, seriously, take a break. You want too much in too little time, and although your intentions might be noble, your statements come across awfully rude in some aspects. Relax a little and don't get eaten up in this "me against the almighty devs" kinda thing.

Greetz
HomerJ
Six years without a signature!

User avatar
vultraz
Community Manager
Posts: 958
Joined: February 7th, 2011, 12:51 pm
Location: Dodging Daleks

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by vultraz »

HttT will never be kicked; it's THE original campaign. The first one, there from the very beginning.

IMO, the current mainline campaigns won't be replaced/removed for the reason that people have contributed a lot of things like art and translations to them since they were added. I don't think we really want to arouse LordBob's wrath by removing the campaigns he's worked hard to make portraits for ;)

Personally, the mainline campaigns that I like most are UtBS, TRoW, DiD, and L. Even thought the others aren't my fav, I don't think they should be replaced. We al have different tastes; there cuould be people out there who absolutely love SoF and LoW. (BTW, I don't think EI all bad ;) )
Creator of Shadows of Deception (for 1.12) and co-creator of the Era of Chaos (for 1.12/1.13).
SurvivalXtreme rocks!!!
What happens when you get scared half to death...twice?

User avatar
taptap
Posts: 980
Joined: October 6th, 2011, 5:42 pm

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by taptap »

I would add campaigns from UMC to mainline instead of removing them. I don't believe in deciding such issues by popularity.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

User avatar
Hulavuta
Posts: 1668
Joined: October 11th, 2008, 8:17 pm
Location: United States

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Hulavuta »

AxalaraFlame wrote:This topic will surely shake the authority of some senior developers, and I never thought this topic can stand long before get locked; however, I am expressing those words for all men here, and I wish moderators can judge it fairly and wisely, instead of lock it because you feel irritated that someone is doubting about your old and obselete campaign no longer deserves to be a mainline one. :|
Are you seriously martyring? You know there's a reason that your topics were locked. It was because they were spam or you asked them to be locked because your question was answered or any meaningful conversation was over. It's not that the moderators have it out for you to lock every thread that you make, it's just that a lot of your threads are pointless and lock-worthy.

Additionally, like HomerJ said, your attitude isn't exactly constructive. You saying "I am the hero against the oppression of the wesnoth gods" is self-fulfilling. If you were more constructive, people might be more willing to engage in a friendly discussion. But the last thing you'd ever want to do is be hostile towards people you're trying to get something from. Especially in this case, since you have no other way to try to make them do it other than changing their minds with your words.

I'm not going to go into your actual arguments for why campaigns should be removed as I feel everyone else has handled that better than I could already.
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

User avatar
Thrawn
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2047
Joined: June 2nd, 2005, 11:37 am
Location: bridge of SSD Chimera

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Thrawn »

AxalaraFlame wrote: Though, Wesnoth is an autocratic game, which developers are the aristocrats and clergies, while gamers like us are low leveled peasants. That is not a pretty good analogy, since most times we are only gamers, who play, complain, and hardly make efforts, like peasants do not plant crops. :lol2:

However, time is changed. 10 years before, there is nothing here but a desolate forum with few gamers and developers. Now we have thousands of users, hundreds of contributors from all over the planet, hundreds of UMCs for players to pick and play.
...
This topic will surely shake the authority of some senior developers, and I never thought this topic can stand long before get locked; however, I am expressing those words for all men here, and I wish moderators can judge it fairly and wisely, instead of lock it because you feel irritated that someone is doubting about your old and obselete campaign no longer deserves to be a mainline one. :|
First of all, I just want to make one thing quite clear: Yes, game content related decisions *are* made by a small elite. The people who make the game decide what's included based off of what they want. The fact that so many people are getting into wesnoth is a testament to the sound judgement of the developers in what to include/how they made their game. While these forums allow the player base to give their opinions and offer suggestions for improvement, the real purpose of them is to develop the game, *not* serve as a traditional community forum that so many people seem to see it as. While sometimes a user's idea for a rework, or new unit, or balance change *is* accepted, that's based on the merit of the idea, rather than some sort of democratic process.

As to "obsolete" campaigns, there are none, and while the campaigns could be updated to match the quality of some UMC, I don't see you volunteering to do that. If you personally don't like some campaigns, feel free to get rid of them from personal files, and replace them however you like. Then, you could even put up your preferences as a fork somewhere and see how many other people feel the same as you regarding the mainline campaigns. However, you seem *very* long in the talk department, whereas most of the change that's come about has been from people taking action.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

User avatar
Crow_T
Posts: 851
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 4:20 am

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Crow_T »

I'm all for this idea, who gets to pick what stays and what goes? Me right? :whistle:

In my opinion, you come to this game, learn the ropes on a few mainline campaigns, then venture into umc territory, which is a big part of the game, actually a pretty huge part of it. Why worry about mainline? Those campaigns cover a wide range of tastes and are a good place to go when you want some stability, in both code and story. I would assume a big factor in what is in mainline is support, who will maintain it? You can't just say, the Tale of XYZ is awesome and put it in mainline while Mr. Hobbyist-Volunteer guy who made it loses interest, dumping this burden on everyone's shoulders, hacky code and all.

User avatar
Hulavuta
Posts: 1668
Joined: October 11th, 2008, 8:17 pm
Location: United States

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Hulavuta »

IMO Thrawn's last post hit the nail straight on the head. Wow.
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

Caphriel
Posts: 994
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 4:10 pm

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Caphriel »

Just adding an extra note because it hasn't been said.

You seem to misunderstand what open source means. Open source does not mean that everyone gets a say in the direction of the project. Open source does mean that anyone can use the code and resources as long as they obey the licensing restrictions. This particular fork of the Wesnoth project is maintained and directed by Dave and the senior developers, et al.. They make the decisions about what goes into it and what gets changed. Other people who like the project and agree with their vision can and will contribute code, art, music, or other resources. But nobody except for the directors actually has any say in the direction of the project.

User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by AxalaraFlame »

As for replacing mainline campaigns, you have to understand that this is a lot of work. Even if you have a rather high quality candidate. Mainline campaigns should be bug-free, grammatically and stylistically perfect in text, good quality graphics etc.
I agree. But if we can dump them, and replaced with better UMCs, these portraits can be "recycled".
As you know, you don't get to select. Which makes this thread extremely purposeless.
You know, I have stated that clear. We don't have that power to select, that is why I call for it. :wink:
Dude, seriously, take a break. You want too much in too little time, and although your intentions might be noble, your statements come across awfully rude in some aspects. Relax a little and don't get eaten up in this "me against the almighty devs" kinda thing.
sorry :oops: ...I am too anxious against imperfection
HttT will never be kicked; it's THE original campaign. The first one, there from the very beginning.
It is imperfect, needs to remake. So many people hace played it, kicking it sounds impossible
I would add campaigns from UMC to mainline instead of removing them. I don't believe in deciding such issues by popularity.
Good idea. Adding more instead of kicking some, let the players judge their quality in a straight way is also a good method :)
it's just that a lot of your threads are pointless and lock-worthy.
I asked them to lock if I found the question is over. However, many of them are still locked for being unworthy to discuss
You saying "I am the hero against the oppression of the wesnoth gods" is self-fulfilling
Hell! Did I say that? :augh:
As to "obsolete" campaigns, there are none, and while the campaigns could be updated to match the quality of some UMC, I don't see you volunteering to do that
When two Americans were go to moon, I didnt see any other men can do that; however, nearly all men say "Hail! Humans arrived moon".
I am currently lacking of the still for remaking them, but it does not mean this idea is counterproductive.
If you were more constructive, people might be more willing to engage in a friendly discussion
Good idea. I removed all bold texed part
However, you seem *very* long in the talk department, whereas most of the change that's come about has been from people taking action.
will you please be my instructor and teach me some stuff of these programming? I will be appreciated :)

User avatar
Hulavuta
Posts: 1668
Joined: October 11th, 2008, 8:17 pm
Location: United States

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Hulavuta »

Okay, I'm going to mainly respond to the stuff that concerns me (aka the parts of my post you quoted)
it's just that a lot of your threads are pointless and lock-worthy.
I asked them to lock if I found the question is over. However, many of them are still locked for being unworthy to discuss
You kinda took my words out of context here. I even said what you said:
You know there's a reason that your topics were locked. It was because they were spam or you asked them to be locked because your question was answered or any meaningful conversation was over. It's not that the moderators have it out for you to lock every thread that you make, it's just that a lot of your threads are pointless and lock-worthy.
You saying "I am the hero against the oppression of the wesnoth gods" is self-fulfilling
Hell! Did I say that? :augh:
You didn't say these exact words verbatim, but you heavily implied it with this statement(I removed the bold so that I could use bold to highlight):
AxalaraFlame wrote:This topic will surely shake the authority of some senior developers, and I never thought this topic can stand long before get locked; however, I am expressing those words for all men here, and I wish moderators can judge it fairly and wisely, instead of lock it because you feel irritated that someone is doubting about your old and obselete campaign no longer deserves to be a mainline one. :|
However, you seem *very* long in the talk department, whereas most of the change that's come about has been from people taking action.
will you please be my instructor and teach me some stuff of these programming? I will be appreciated :)
It's quite easy to learn WML on your own, and it's easier on everyone else to get help with specific problems rather than just having to teach everything in general. Most WML (aka Wesnoth Markup Language, the coding you need to know to make Wesnoth content) can be learned simply by studying existing campaigns. To get help, you just have to make a thread for your campaign in the Scenario and Campaign Development forums, or a thread in the WML Workshop forums. :D
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

User avatar
Dixie
Posts: 1757
Joined: February 10th, 2010, 1:06 am
Location: $x1,$y1

Re: I think it is time to kick out bad mainline campaigns!

Post by Dixie »

Also, about WML, download the "A Simple Campaign" Add-on and look at its files. It's a pretty good tutorial.
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny - Frank Zappa
Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth

Locked