1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

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Nobun
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1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Nobun » April 17th, 2011, 7:39 am

I don't know if I should report it here or in GNA.
I want to mark that the terrain used for the "path in swallow water" (mixed type: swallow water - plain), or at least the one used in caves of basilisk if there are more, is not good in my opinion (so I suggest to turn back to the old one where you see the whater and the "stones").

Now I will explain why.
Preface: not all people like me have a good sight. There are people who have some sight-problems. For example there are people that have colour-blindness.
So... some people are unable to distinguish similar colors.

The actual terrain "path in swallow water" is more or less brown (or at least my monitor shows it as a sort of brawn) and it has a VERY VERY similar color with cave terrains. So for people that has colour-blindness or similiar sight-problems could be impossible to dinstingues clearly the "path in swallow water" terrain and the "caves-type" terrains.
We all know how many it is important to distinguish clearly terrains to plan a good strategy. This why I think that this terrain should be changed.

I have started to test 1.9.5 only now. So for the moment is the only terrain not good I have seen. Perhaps I will able to add more reports in the following days.

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Crendgrim » April 17th, 2011, 10:32 am

Why should that actually matter? If you are color-blind you cannot enjoy Wesnoth's beautiful terrain, no matter what color it has. Besides, the look of the game isn't that important for the gameplay, because you are able to view all important information (like terrain name and unit defense) on the top right of the screen.
I don't understand why another color of that terrain would be better here :?


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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by zookeeper » April 17th, 2011, 11:34 am

Crendgrim wrote:Why should that actually matter? If you are color-blind you cannot enjoy Wesnoth's beautiful terrain, no matter what color it has. Besides, the look of the game isn't that important for the gameplay, because you are able to view all important information (like terrain name and unit defense) on the top right of the screen.
I don't understand why another color of that terrain would be better here :?
So that he could see what terrain each hex is without hovering the mouse over each one? :roll:

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Velensk » April 17th, 2011, 11:42 am

I'll admit, I don't suffer from color blindness but the color of the ford does not seem all that close to that of caves to me. The caves tend to be a dark grey whereas the ford is brown with blue on it. I can however see why if they do truly look that similar to you the texturing for the cave path terrain might cause confusion but not the texturing for standard cave terrain.
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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Nobun » April 17th, 2011, 12:25 pm

Crendgrim wrote:Why should that actually matter? If you are color-blind you cannot enjoy Wesnoth's beautiful terrain, no matter what color it has
Sorry... no offense... but what kind of answer is this?
I perhaps explain worse my pont. I am NOT color-blind (luckly) so I can distinguish the terrains. But however I think that a good development of graphic software (like wesnoth) should be aware about possible sight-injuried players.
Seeing the fact it is a testing release, I think it is a good thing to report a possible problem like this one.
However I mentioned the fact that, becouse of the color, a color-blinded person could see terrains in a uniform way. So this mean that it is possible to a player of this kind to be unable to distinguish this terrain from, for example, plain cave and to understand if it is water or cave becouse he could see no differences.
Don't misunderstand... I like new terrains too... however I think that this particular terrain can create some troubles. Perhaps I am wrong, but I wanted to report this possible problem.
Besides, the look of the game isn't that important for the gameplay, because you are able to view all important information (like terrain name and unit defense) on the top right of the screen
.
not completely true. It is important also to understand all terrains map in the moment you are looking it. For example to figure out in your mind possible schemas of attacks / positioning also without having to use mouse.
So that he could see what terrain each hex is without hovering the mouse over each one?
This is what I meant. A player whith sight-problems could be forced to do this action.
I can however see why if they do truly look that similar to you the texturing for the cave path terrain might cause confusion
Yes... I was thinking mostly about that terrain in particular.
Perhaps I see them similar (even if I am not colour-blinded) becouse of my pc monitor (it is a laptop pc with LED or LCD monitor... I don't remember). This monitor, like a lot of monitor of this kind, tend to alter the brightness so it confuses by itself some similar colors. However this type of problem is not limited to my own monitor, but it is common of a lot of LED monitors)

The map "caves of basilisk" is the best map to see why I am thinking that those terrains are similar (they are near each other)

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Kalajel » April 17th, 2011, 4:50 pm

Hmm, was there a change in graphics that I missed? The last time I played multiplayer, back in 1.4, every terrain looked great and easily distinguishable from each other… Right now, the best solution I can give you is to play with your monitor's contrast and brightness settings.

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by 8680 » April 17th, 2011, 5:03 pm

You could switch the terrain images. Find the new images you don't like, find the old images you do like, and replace the new with the old. It'll look terrible, especially if you have animated terrain on, but at least you'll be able to tell the difference.

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Crendgrim » April 17th, 2011, 6:41 pm

Nobun:
Sorry, maybe my post was a bit rude. I didn't intend to, but due to my limited English skills I cannot write as polite as I want to :P
What I wanted to say with my post is that IMHO it isn't that important to be able to distinguish between all terrain types. If I was color-blind, I would expect to have some trouble reading everything. However, I admit that I don't know how it feels exactly for a color-blind person to see some cave besides a ford..
It wasn't meant to be a counter-argument against your idea, but a relativization to the problem.


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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Caphriel » April 17th, 2011, 9:41 pm

8680 wrote:You could switch the terrain images. Find the new images you don't like, find the old images you do like, and replace the new with the old. It'll look terrible, especially if you have animated terrain on, but at least you'll be able to tell the difference.
Colorblind gamers should not be treated as second class players :augh: That's a hack solution, not making the game colorblind-friendly.
Crendgrim wrote:However, I admit that I don't know how it feels exactly for a color-blind person to see some cave besides a ford..
Well, looking at the map in question... For my specific case, the cave path/ford distinction is fairly clear, but I can see how it could be problematic. However, ford/shallow water and especially shallow/deep water are problematic. Shallow and deep water are almost indistinguishable, especially under fog and/or at night.

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Sapient » April 17th, 2011, 10:28 pm

Caphriel wrote: Colorblind gamers should not be treated as second class players :augh: That's a hack solution, not making the game colorblind-friendly.
No, it's a very reasonable solution because not all colorblindness is the same. We ran into this same problem when we tried to make all the team colors more recognizable. In the end, the ability to customize the configuration file satisfied everyone's needs.
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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Nobun » April 17th, 2011, 10:47 pm

Nobun:
Sorry, maybe my post was a bit rude. I didn't intend to, but due to my limited English skills I cannot write as polite as I want to :P
I am not a native english too... I have a limited english too, so I understand what you mean ^^
No, it's a very reasonable solution because not all colorblindness is the same
This is true. However, as I said at first topic, I wanted to talk about this possible problem and to open the discussion about it. My purpose was to change the graphic of "path to water" with a more similar (perhaps animated) water graphic like the old one (so all water hexes will be blue... while now the "path to water" is more or less brown). But I mainly wanted to mark attention to this possible problem becouse, sometimes, the fact that some people are not able to see well becouse of injuried-sight (like colour-blindness or other) is a chance that sometimes is not evaluated.

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Caphriel » April 18th, 2011, 5:43 am

Sapient wrote:
Caphriel wrote: Colorblind gamers should not be treated as second class players :augh: That's a hack solution, not making the game colorblind-friendly.
No, it's a very reasonable solution because not all colorblindness is the same. We ran into this same problem when we tried to make all the team colors more recognizable. In the end, the ability to customize the configuration file satisfied everyone's needs.
Let me preface this by saying that I am aware the BfW team does more for colorblind gamers than many game makers.

That being said, leaving the terrain issue up to the players fiddling around with the images may be a reasonable solution, but it is still a hack solution. It's a workaround. Using cues other than color to differentiate deep/shallow water would be preferable. Maybe some froth to the tips of the waves on one of them, for instance. It's not as easy to modify the terrain images as it is to modify the team colors, and color-blind people are frequently not artistically inclined, for obvious reasons.

Please don't read this as demanding that something should be done, but I don't think the issue of distinguishing terrain should be dismissed offhand with "can already be fixed by the user," because the user may not be able to fix it.

I'll save further thoughts on this until morning, when my head is clearer, but I do have a couple ideas for how to address the water issue, at least. :)

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by pauxlo » April 18th, 2011, 5:28 pm

Maybe we could add some alternative terrain images (clearer differentiated for different terrain), and have some option to switch it?

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by Caphriel » April 18th, 2011, 5:59 pm

That would be a great deal more work for the artists, though. Although maybe an option to use the old terrain images? That's not ideal either, but it would be more user-friendly than manually replacing them.

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Re: 1.9.5 swallow water / plain = bad terrain

Post by pauxlo » April 18th, 2011, 6:22 pm

We would not need as much different terrains there as we now have (e.g. we would not need 21 different forests and 29 different villages - terrain which is equivalent can look same), and it would only be needed to differ from the main one when it is easily mixed. And yes, it would possible to reuse old graphics where it is better distinguishable for color blind people.

Of course, this would need some help from actual color blind people indicating where they see problems.

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