Wesnoth mainline content suitability

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Neuromancer
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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by Neuromancer » April 10th, 2011, 1:39 pm

ivanovic wrote: In general I think noone developing something for Wesnoth thinks along the line of "lets target players that are X years old" but more like "what do I think would be something nice and interesting to do". Talking about age groups and whatnot does not help here in any way. The idea would more be "I want something with a deep and hard to get story, with some darker backgrounds" (as an example). Yeah, something like this is less likely to attract younger people that don't want to see such story things. But it does not mean that it would get some specific age rating.
Yes, thats the way of thinking I had when starting this thread. I incorrectly assigned this to the age ratings (these just correlate). So, why dont we have (for example) this deep story campaign in the mainline (furthermore if we have 16 broad ones)? I think it will be appealing to the rather large group of players!

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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by Velensk » April 10th, 2011, 4:45 pm

Tell us what campaign you think should be added that apparently has such a deep story but for whatever reason does not fit the suitability standards. That will give us something concrete to discuss rather than 'Lets add a campaign with a deep story!!'. Yeah, sounds nice but such a campaign has to exist and not be unsuitable for other reasons. If you are not pushing for a specific campaign, then I would point out that if you can write a deep campaign, then I do not see why you could not write a deep campaign that meets the suitability standards. I also do not see why such a campaign would not have general appeal including appeal to these 'outliers' you apparently believe that it is written for.

As a side note though: Gameplay first please. If anyone wants to read or write whatever deep, philosophical, dramatic, angsty, clever, or whatever you want in your stories, there are plenty of mediums better suited to it than Wesnoth campaigns. If I want literature, I'll read literature. Now I don't mind when the good things in literature show up in games but I would rather not have them get in the way of the things that I play games for.
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Neuromancer
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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by Neuromancer » April 10th, 2011, 8:14 pm

First, dont put words into my mouth:
Velensk wrote:I also do not see why such a campaign would not have general appeal including appeal to these 'outliers' you apparently believe that it is written for.
Velensk wrote:Gameplay first please. If anyone wants to read or write whatever deep, philosophical, dramatic, angsty, clever, or whatever you want in your stories, there are plenty of mediums better suited to it than Wesnoth campaigns. If I want literature, I'll read literature. Now I don't mind when the good things in literature show up in games but I would rather not have them get in the way of the things that I play games for.
Whats your point there? Lets leave interesting in the literature and god forbid it shows up in the games? Or that interesting stories + good gameplay = impossible to achieve? Or Wesnoth is unsuitable medium to tell interesting story? Or something different..?
Velensk wrote:Tell us what campaign you think should be added that apparently has such a deep story but for whatever reason does not fit the suitability standards. That will give us something concrete to discuss rather than 'Lets add a campaign with a deep story!!'. Yeah, sounds nice but such a campaign has to exist and not be unsuitable for other reasons.
Yeah, its basically about "Lets add a campaign with a deep story!" or rather "Why are we not devoting resources to creation of this campaign?". And I think it doesnt matter if we call it deep or hard to get or interesting or non-trivial or whatever.
Velensk wrote: If you are not pushing for a specific campaign, then I would point out that if you can write a deep campaign, then I do not see why you could not write a deep campaign that meets the suitability standards.
I dont have writing skill but surely Id be among the first to sign up for creation of such a campaign (map design or playtesting for example)!

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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by Velensk » April 10th, 2011, 8:39 pm

Whats your point there? Lets leave interesting in the literature and god forbid it shows up in the games? Or that interesting stories + good gameplay = impossible to achieve? Or Wesnoth is unsuitable medium to tell interesting story? Or something different..?
My point was that if you made a wesnoth campaign with a good story but did not make the gameplay interesting, I would miss out on said story and that would be less than ideal (at least on my end of things). I do consider Wesnoth a very poor medium for story telling however. The constraints of detailing certain things and the requirement to make it so that the story does not get in the way of the playing is far less ideal than books.
Yeah, its basically about "Lets add a campaign with a deep story!" or rather "Why are we not devoting resources to creation of this campaign?".
Because nobody is doing so. Do you think someone dictates to the creators of campaigns 'hey you, go write something deep'? No. Campaigns only come into existance because people want to make them and while I doubt that anybody goes into campaign making with the deliberate idea to make it shallow, so far I have never run into a plot that I was really impressed by (including my own [I have heard that the plot for To Lands Unknown is deep but I found it too boring and/or annoying to play that I cannot really say. There might be others like this]). Having written a few Wesnoth campaigns I appreciate that it isn't easy to make a fun campaign and tell a deep story at the same time. Mostly, I settle for stories that provide fun scenarios without feeling contrived or extremely overdone and this has somehow gotten me compliments for story telling (yes I have been complimented on the stories of Count Kromire, War of the Dragon, and the parable in Salt Wars. I think that although they are decent by Wesnoth standards they don't really stand up to anything from a good novel in any way).

Ultimately, if you want this kind of thing, the most reliable way to get it is to write it yourself. If you lack sufficent talent, then perhaps everyone else lacks the talent or interest too. My earlier caution was that even if you managed to get a good story, that you should attempt to make it fun to play before you flesh out the writing. I have seen so many attempted campaigns boasting grand stories and tons of characters but so far none of them have ever gotten anywhere AFAIK.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by StDrake » April 10th, 2011, 9:35 pm

Reading this all is kindof funny when I consider the depth od DiD that probably gone through without notice
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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by Velensk » April 10th, 2011, 9:47 pm

Well, this is definately a case where your milage may vary. I know a number of people like DiD's plot. I may just be hard to impress or oblivious to the hidden messsages (or whatever people think is there or in other places).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by Neuromancer » April 11th, 2011, 7:06 pm

StDrake wrote:Reading this all is kindof funny when I consider the depth od DiD that probably gone through without notice
Yeah, mileage may vary.
Velensk wrote:My point was that if you made a wesnoth campaign with a good story but did not make the gameplay interesting, I would miss out on said story and that would be less than ideal (at least on my end of things). I do consider Wesnoth a very poor medium for story telling however. The constraints of detailing certain things and the requirement to make it so that the story does not get in the way of the playing is far less ideal than books.
Yeah, but on the other hand, books dont provide you with some kind of "interest arc" (in wesnoth one does some action then read some story and so on) and also in the literature one doesnt have the option to actually change the story. Of course, in wesnoth, one cannot reliably tell the story of Sterlings Schismatrix for example, but I believe one could make interesting (both in story and gameplay) campaign based on said story. Having expressed this, I think our opinions actually correlate to some extent, you believing this interesting gameplay/interesting story idea achieveability less, I more.

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Re: Wesnoth mainline content suitability

Post by pauxlo » April 13th, 2011, 11:44 pm

Velensk wrote:
Yeah, its basically about "Lets add a campaign with a deep story!" or rather "Why are we not devoting resources to creation of this campaign?".
Because nobody is doing so. Do you think someone dictates to the creators of campaigns 'hey you, go write something deep'? No. Campaigns only come into existance because people want to make them [...]
Ultimately, if you want this kind of thing, the most reliable way to get it is to write it yourself.
I think this is the important point. There is no developer committee which decides "there should be a campaign about X, targeted to group Y". Also, there are no "resources" which could be devoted to campaign creation - all such work is done by individuals (or small loose groups of those), and the "developer committee" only comes then to decide whether to include a campaign in mainline or not. (This "committee" is in quotes, since it is mostly informal communication via the IRC channel, no formal votes.)

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