I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

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133794m3r
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I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by 133794m3r »

And then came easy b/c normal was like zomfgwtfbbqsauce hard. So i tried easy, it started off being "ok" difficultly and i was of course doing the first scenario. Now, i don't know about anyone else but Easy, on the First Campaign which is supposed to be easy and then playing it on Easy level, i expect myself to be able to atleast get to the end of it without having to literally get to the point where i have to cheat to get past it.

I'm a person to plays quite a bit of Strategy games, and this is something i've begun to notice about Open Source strategy games in general. It seems that the AI is well cheating. It's doing nearly impossible moves, and is well wiping the floor with me. On the Novice Level, and Easy difficulty i would've expected to be just to well, you know play through to get a feeling of how the AI behaves and go from there.

This seems to be a bit too much to ask though, since the Easy AI made it nearly impossible to even survive. On all of the scenarios with Objectives such as "survive until turns run out" or "get to this point" it was made way too clear that i wasn't going to be able to do this. I don't know how the rest of you were able to get in and get out of this without any trouble besides reading a strategy guide on the wiki but i am appalled that the game is that difficult on the easiest setting. I could and should expect to get myself defeated a few times in a row in Hard or higher. And on Normal, I EXPECT to lose a fight or two. But when it gets to the point where there's no other way for me to get past it but to basically cheat that's just going way too far.

The other game that had something such as this was Glest it is an RTS and not a TBS on there within the first minute on easy they had a full zergling army at my camp beating me into the ground. I doubt the AI is that "amazing" and if it is, the AI programmers should make it make a few mistakes or limit it's thinking time in both cases. Also both the AI and the Enemy should be playing with the same rules as in units of the same type cost the same for both sides. I've yet to delve into it's code yet, but i'm sure i'll find that the Enemie's units cost a fair bit less than my own and also hit harder, and have generally more hp.

All of these things combined with the fact that it seems that the AI is given an upperhand from the very beginning and keeps it doing that throughout, coupled with the fact that it takes towards the end what seems like 2-5 seconds for each of it's moves is a horrible creation. I don't think this game'll get a whole lot of new fans that aren't into using game guides which tell them exactly how to play the thing, since the game's supposed to be fun, and not feel like a chore to play.


Well that's really it, i'd love to come back in a year or so and see the difficutlies actually scaled the way they should be, and the enemies to not have an upperhand against me the entire time. Until then, i'm goign to uninstall it and leave this place be and mark this game off as another Open Source game i should avoid and not tell others to go for.

Jozrael
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Jozrael »

Welcome to Wesnoth!

'Easy' mode on most campaigns (especially the earlier ones) is supposed to be trivial, and most find it so. I'm not impugning your gaming abilities, but perhaps we can help you understand the mechanics a bit better. Some misconceptions:

1: It is possible to beat every campaign on hard with no cheating, depending on player skill. It should be possible for most every player to beat the earliest campaigns on easy the first time through. If you are having difficulty, please come to the forum and ask for help: we'll give it to you tenfold.

2: The AI is not cheating. Scenarios are designed with certain feels to them. In the first scenario of Heir to the Throne, the AI has massively more gold and access to level 3 units right off the bat. The point is not to engage them in a knock-down drag-up fight, but get your leader to the drop point safely, using your other units as diversions and shields. (Getting some kills and maybe a level or two along the way doesn't hurt but certainly isn't necessary). In fact, the player has access to much cheaper units than the AI: the AI must pay full cost for all levels of units (up to 40-50 gold apiece!), while the player can recall units between scenarios for the flat rate of 20 gold, no matter how powerful they have grown.

TL;DR: The AI has different settings than you do. Just because you start with 120 gold doesn't mean it can't start with 600, depending on the scenario. Each is tweaked to be both fun and fair: we're not out to pit you against the impossible in an early campaign (in some expert campaigns players relish the challenge xD).

On my (old) computer the AI moves pretty instantly, you might want to fiddle with your preferences to get better performance if the AI is taking excessively long on your computer.

3: It would be most useful if you posted replays of troubling scenarios on here. We can either go turn by turn through them and point out what we would've done differently, as well as offer over-arching advice on playstyle.


If this game is too difficult for you, I'm sorry. We'd really like to know where you had the most trouble (those replays help!) so we can improve our tutorial and possibly tweak the easy difficulty level for some campaigns. This is an open source game as you noted: there is no company here producing the game. Show us where we could improve, maybe get your hands dirty and help out as well (have any programming talent?), and Wesnoth will be better for it.

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Ken_Oh
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Ken_Oh »

I thought the game was hard until I realized terrain defined a unit's defense (i.e. I learned how to play).

I would suggest some things for you (like playing AI in an even match until you get a feel for things), but you seem determined to write the game off. I suppose something along the lines of "cry more, lern 2 play, ez newb" is more what you're looking for? Someone like BIG_LIZARD_PWNZ would do a better job than me.

The Black Sword
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by The Black Sword »

I could and should expect to get myself defeated a few times in a row in Hard or higher. And on Normal, I EXPECT to lose a fight or two.
This is what you might expect in commercial games but it is not the same in wesnoth. If you're not playing one of the really easy campaigns then you, as a new player, will(probably) not stand a chance on the hardest difficulty level, its not a case of being defeated a few times in a row, but that you'll probably find it impossible. Likewise normal will be a huge challenge, maybe you could win on normal but I'd expect to lose a scenario more than one or two times to do it.

From what I've seen the campaigns in wesnoth are set so as to challenge you at every difficulty level. As a beginner you should have to start on easy, you are not expected to be able to play normal or hard so don't bother. But this does not mean easy will be a walk in the park, you will still have to learn and think about the game in order to progress.

Personally this level of difficulty is something I like about wesnoth, a lot of games are boring and repetitive but wesnoth challenges you from the very start, if that's not the challenge you're looking for then fair enough but I hope you're not turned off of wesnoth because of unrealistic expectations of being able to play on normal etc. from the beginning.
When I started playing wesnoth it was on the easiest difficulty level and I also found it very difficult, but now some of the campaigns are too easy even on hard. The scenarios can be beaten but you have to pay close attention and think about the Time of Day, terrain, resistances, Zoc, villages etc.

Sangel
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Sangel »

1) The AI does not "cheat". The units it fields perform exactly as their stat-lines suggest, and the percentage combat chances are exactly the same regardless of whether a unit belongs to a human or AI.

2) The AI does not change (much) depending upon the difficulty level you choose to play at. Many designers will tweak it on the higher difficulty levels (usually in the direction of being more aggressive), but it does not get any "smarter". The general strategy of the AI is to identify your most vulnerable units and pounce on them, then move on to your next most vulnerable units. However, the AI is not particularly good at self-preservation, and you can exploit this to your advantage.

3) Your opponent DOES usually get more gold, and more advanced units to field, the higher the difficulty setting. Often, it will have more gold than the player's minimum starting value, and/or be able to field L2 and L3 units. This is to balance the fact that you, the player, are able to accumulate excess gold over time, as well as accumulate high-level units to recall in later scenarios.

4) If you are having difficulty on "Easy", then it is likely that you have not grasped one or more basic game mechanics that are necessary to survive and prosper in Wesnoth. Common mistakes that newcomers make include:
  • Not using the Recall system and/or not levelling up units effectively. Wesnoth requires you to assemble enough veteran units to survive to the later stages. In the earlier scenarios, protect those units who are acquiring XP; send them to heal in villages, and don't risk them needlessly. Once they level up, you can use them to protect lower level units as you level those. Employ undesirable L1 units as "cannon fodder"; do not waste higher level units or lower level units with good potential.
  • Not exploiting terrain to your advantage. Try to arrange your units so that you are positioned on defensible terrain (castles, forests, villages, mountains, etc), while the computer is positioned on indefensible terrain (grassland, sand, water, etc). Small differences in defense value add up to serious differences in battle outcomes. Note that different units have different defense values in different terrain; Horsemen, for instance, generally do not benefit from defensive terrain and should be deployed with this in mind.
  • Not recognizing the night/day cycle. Lawful units gain bonuses during the day, and suffer penalties at night. The opposite is true for Chaotic units. Press the attack when your forces are strong (and/or when your opponent's forces are weak), and fall back to defensive positions when your forces are weak. If you send Lawful units against Chaotic units at night, you're going to suffer heavy casualties. There's no need to rush. Wait for a more favourable time to fight.
If you're still having difficulty after applying these tips, more guidance is available in the "Strategies and Tips" forum. If you've read (and are using) these strategies, and have examined the tips for the scenarios you're having difficulty with, you should have no problems conquering any Wesnoth campaign on "Easy" difficulty.

[Please note that some of the expert-level campaigns do not have an "Easy" setting; they start at "Normal" or "Challenging" and go from there]
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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Gambit
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Gambit »

The AI is given a big gold boost, and allowed to recruit higher level units in order to make up for its massive stupidity. Seriously, once [if?] you learn to play the game you'll look back on this post of yours, and chuckle.

You've got to keep in mind all the things Black Sword mentioned at the end of his reply.

Time of Day: Some units fight better at night, others do better during the day.

Terrain: Different units will defend better on different terrain. This means they have lower odds of being hit. For example an elf on forest only has a 30% chance of getting hit, but that same elf in the water will get hit 80% of the time.

Resistances: Different kid of attacks do better against different enemies. Try shooting a Wose (big walking tree thing) with arrows. You're doing didly squat. Now take an orcish archer with flaming arrows, and you'll take it down easily.

Zone of Control: Enemies can't move past each other.

Villages: Retreat and heal when needed!

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lord_joakim
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by lord_joakim »

Sorry about potential upcoming roughness.
I could and should expect to get myself defeated a few times in a row in Hard or higher. And on Normal, I EXPECT to lose a fight or two.
So you want a game with no to minimum challenge? Get hold of the commercial giants then. I know plenty of games that were boring and repetetive; and note that those games wouldn't have been if I was challenged as a player. If I want to press buttons and watch colors fly by before the story is finished without challenge, I'm going to watch a movie instead.

Thing is, old games used to directly hinder you in completing them. They were hard as hell. Appreciation was different back then; a game was seen to be fun as long as you were challenged. Today, some games can be finished in a matter of a day, depending on your general skill level.

I had absolutely no problems getting into Wesnoth. I played through the beginner's campaign with little to no difficulty; it was really boring, actually, but I wanted to learn the game. The popups were helpful and I listened to them, then I won. My second campaign was the one with human rebels against Queen Ashienvere, which I just finished (I usually do multiplayer), and I took it out on Normal while only losing a couple of times in the first stage.

To put it bluntly, I think you have a misconception of what some players (Many players, actually) consider fun, and that you don't play that well. You don't need strategy guides, but you have to think as it is a strategy game.

Also, the reason why Wesnoth 'isn't that popular' might simply be that it's an open source game without access to commercials, and as it's turn-based, which turns many people off. Most people like shooters or [censored] C&C copies. This is more like Fire Emblem; and I like it that way. Fire Emblem was quite popular, by the way, and was actually quite difficult as well. :)

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Bellerophon
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Bellerophon »

133794m3r wrote: Well that's really it, i'd love to come back in a year or so and see the difficutlies actually scaled the way they should be, and the enemies to not have an upperhand against me the entire time. Until then, i'm goign to uninstall it and leave this place be and mark this game off as another Open Source game i should avoid and not tell others to go for.
See you next year, buddy. :)

Seriously though, I see kids these days who just can't get it in their heads that they have to work hard if they want to achieve anything in life even if it is something as trivial as computer game. It's known as the "Karate kid syndrome": at the beginning of the movie there was this loser kid that kept getting trolled and was super emo about it, then he stumbles upon an old japanese dude which is followed by a five minute montage after which he PWNZ LIEK REALLY HARD and all the chicks <3 him and stuff. Real life does not work that way. It takes loads and loads of practice to be really good at something. I've been playing Wesnoth for a couple of years now and the more I play, the more I realize how much more I have to learn. ...It is the wai of the Schwartz.

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Telaron
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Telaron »

The first dozen games are always the hardest. I can recall playing 1.4's Son of the Black-eye and thinking "whoa how do you kill these guys? It get's easier with experience. No game is really easy. All require a small (or large) comfort level with the scenario in order to win. :D
Check out the FOSS game Sumwars
Wish I had more time for composing music...

Yoyobuae
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Yoyobuae »

I really dislike the direction modern games have gone. There are is much more that can be added to the game (cutscenes, pretty 3d graphics, music, tons of various content, etc) to make it good that a good gameplay experience becomes secondary.

I don't care why or how Nintendo Hard games came to be, but the sheer enjoyment produced by beating such seemingly impossible challenges made a good part of the experience. Added on top there was very well though gameplay mechanics that contributed more to improve the feel of the game.

I understand that games shouldn't be ridiculously hard right off the bat. The typical approach is to ramp up the dificulty level as the game advances. Cave Story is a great example of this as it begins at very gentle dificulty and slowly but surely ramps up the dificulty becoming challenging eventually. I've read some criticism pointing out it's uber-hard boss battles, but to me facing the hardest bosses are what I found the most exciting.

I guess "To each to it's own" applies here. If the difficulty doesn't suit your taste, don't blame the game. Not your fault either. It's just not the kind of game you can enjoy, understandable.

Schierke
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Schierke »

I'm a big fan of games such as Advance Wars, Fire Emblem and Tactics Ogre, so discovering Wesnoth was really fun for me and i tought that would instantly make me great a BfW.

The truth is that i've found even the normal level to be pretty challenging, mostly because may commerciall turn based games try no to be so hard in order to attract more people and make more money, so you end up with easy and normal difficulties that consist of you just steamrolling the enemy in each stage no matter how [censored] is the strategy you choose.

Tha fact is, BfW is not like this, easy is supposed to be challenging (yet not impossible) for people with basic understanding of the game, because even on easy you will fail if all you want is to skip the manual, skip some helpful tips you might find in the forum and just own everything without even trying.

Most games this days are all about instant satisfaction, it's nice to see one that shows you the value and fun of challenge and reward. For example, it took me about 15 to 20 tries (and several days) to complete a stage called Isle of The Damned with the secondary objective (killing two damn Liches) and i was getting really frustrated towards the end, but when i finally did it, it felt great.

Yoyobuae
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Yoyobuae »

Schierke wrote:... i was getting really frustrated towards the end, but when i finally did it, it felt great.
That's perhaps the issue. Some people quit at the frustrated stage and don't get to the feel great stage. Therefore they assume everything is frustration.

Note how the OP keeps going on and on like this:
  • "And then came easy b/c normal was like zomfgwtfbbqsauce hard."
  • "It seems that the AI is well cheating. It's doing nearly impossible moves, and is well wiping the floor with me."
  • "... Easy AI made it nearly impossible to even survive."
  • "I don't know how the rest of you were able to get in and get out of this without any trouble besides reading a strategy guide ..."
Who is he trying to convince? Us or himself? IMO, by insisting so much on the impossibility of the dificulty, he's just giving himself an excuse to not continue and walk away. He doesn't want to think about how others can achieve what he can't, or that the problem is not the dificulty but himself.

Well, he probably isn't even reading the replies, the least he wants is others telling him how wrong he is.

TheHouseJackBuilt
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by TheHouseJackBuilt »

I agree with most of the responses but on an offtopic note the HttT campaign (which is probably the first campaign everyone plays because its first on the list) does have some scenarios like the one where u have to survive three liches that imo are above the regular novice ones. Plus its a very long campaign so theres more chance for someone to not have enough recalls or gold in later scenarios.

I understand that it makes sense for HttT to be first since its the main campaign of the game and i m not asking to change its difficulty i think its the most balanced campaign of the game.I dont know if this was suggested before (search button doesnt work) but maybe A tale of two brothers and Orcish incursion that are much easier and shorter could be placed first on the list so the player would pick them first. Or alternatively there could be more difficulty levels than just novice intermidiate and expert since it seems a bit odd to put TSG and HttT at the same level with the other two.

lmelior
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by lmelior »

Jozrael wrote:In the first scenario of Heir to the Throne, the AI has massively more gold and access to level 3 units right off the bat. The point is not to engage them in a knock-down drag-up fight, but get your leader to the drop point safely, using your other units as diversions and shields. (Getting some kills and maybe a level or two along the way doesn't hurt but certainly isn't necessary).
Quoted for emphasis. Perhaps it needs to be repeated:

No, you can not kill everybody in the first scenario of Heir to the Throne without cheating. You are not supposed to try.

Read the scenario objectives and follow them. One of the best parts about Wesnoth is that not every scenario simply involves mindlessly slaughtering everybody and moving on.

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Gambit
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Re: I downloaded it and started playing on normal...

Post by Gambit »

lmelior wrote: Read the scenario objectives and follow them. One of the best parts about Wesnoth is that not every scenario simply involves mindlessly slaughtering everybody and moving on.
Just most of them. :lol2:

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