Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

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wieker
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Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by wieker »

... in battle. Who want to test?

You can download it from:

http://bitbucket.org/wieker/wesnoth-1.6/overview/

Feel free to ask any question here =)
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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

Well, you are certainly doing something better than all the people who just whine about the RNG and flame the devs, but what exactly does your patch do? How does it replace the RNG? Do units hit 100% of the time? Are you just reducing the luck involved?
I really don't feel like downloading it just to see what it does unless you can really sell it to me. (or maybe I'm just lazy... :P )

(and by the way, did you know there are already a couple of addons for less or no luck? Not trying to discourage you, just letting you know...)

wieker
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by wieker »

>How does it replace the RNG?

damage = old_dmage*chance_to_hit/100

>did you know there are already a couple of addons for less or no luck

which addons? tell me, please
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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

wieker wrote:which addons? tell me, please
The LessLuck era for one, I thought there was another, but I can't seem to find it now... maybe it's no longer around. (or maybe I dreamed it? :P )

wieker
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by wieker »

>The LessLuck era for one

Thanks, but is anywhere description of this era, does it only smooth random values? I can read sources, but it take time. (FIX: already read and find description)

>or maybe I dreamed it?

As you can see my patch is not in dreams =), and it make possible to play without RNG with any Era, not with special era.
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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

wieker wrote:it make possible to play without RNG with any Era, not with special era.
A good point. From now on when people whine about the RNG, I'll refer them to this topic and your patch. :)

Caphriel
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Caphriel »

How does your patch handle weapon specials like slow and poison that have an effect if the unit hits, but not effect if the unit misses? If units now always succeed with poison and slow attacks, I imagine they'll be a tad overpowered ;)

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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

Similarly, marksman and magic would be useless. I don't think this is meant to be a totally perfectly balanced way to play, just a way to do it without the RNG.

MDG
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by MDG »

Wieker, hi

Here are some links to related topics (note that I haven't checked the topics in detail so I don't know how up to date they are or if they are still relevant. Just thought you might be interested in taking a look through or knowing who else has worked on this area.)

Zookeeper's lessluck era
Sauron's lessluck mod
Fosprey's lessluck mod

Like I said, I don't know if any of these are up to date, it's up to you if you want to take a look at them.

Caphriel
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Caphriel »

Captain_Wrathbow wrote:Similarly, marksman and magic would be useless. I don't think this is meant to be a totally perfectly balanced way to play, just a way to do it without the RNG.
No, marksman and magic would generate higher damage. Magic would always deal .7*max_possible_damage and marksman would deal .6*max_possible_damage when attacking, if I understand it right.

wieker
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by wieker »

>No, marksman and magic would generate higher damage. Magic would always deal .7*max_possible_damage and marksman would deal .6*max_possible_damage when attacking, if I understand it right.

All right, mages and marksmans will inflict more damage.

>If units now always succeed with poison and slow attacks, I imagine they'll be a tad overpowered

Yes, always succeed. I think now, how to avoid that correct without RNG.

2MDG

Thanks for links.
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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

Caphriel wrote:No, marksman and magic would generate higher damage. Magic would always deal .7*max_possible_damage and marksman would deal .6*max_possible_damage when attacking, if I understand it right.
Oh yeah, you're right. My mistake.

Dave
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Dave »

To be honest, a lot of people have suggested this idea of damage = (chance to hit) * damage * strikes

...I think such a mechanic makes the game boring. A unit with a 10-2 attack is suddenly exactly the same as a unit with a 5-4 attack.

If you really want to take the time and effort to fiddle with the random number mechanics, I suggest at least trying something interesting.

My suggestion for something interesting to try would be to make it so units have guaranteed hits but variable damage. Make it so a 5-4 unit does 4d5 damage, and a 10-2 unit does 2d10 damage. This will keep a good deal of randomness in the game, but mitigate it significantly.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

Yoyobuae
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Yoyobuae »

wieker wrote:
Caphriel wrote:If units now always succeed with poison and slow attacks, I imagine they'll be a tad overpowered ;)
Yes, always succeed. I think now, how to avoid that correct without RNG.
Simple solution, keep using the RNG for only these two weapon specials. IMO, its a fair compromise between using and not using the RNG, and doesn't require rebalancing.

That is, keep doing both calculations. Calculate damage like done in your patch, but keep the old RNG code around and use it to calculate whether poison/slow hits or misses.

It will probably require a bit more of code tweaking, since poison/slow are currently triggered directly by hits.

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Zachron
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Re: Hello! I wrote patch, which disable Random Number Generator

Post by Zachron »

It might be possible to set up the RNG to determine whether or not the effects happen, without compromising the determinism of the damage.
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