new player frustrated about losing leveled units

[Zarel]

This is not quite ideal, especially in later scenarios or harder difficulties. Unless you're turtling, you should mostly recall higher leveled units to grab as many villages as you can. Just make sure to keep em on good terrain and keep your foot soldier types in front. I'd say, half and half recall/recruit is good, or 100% recall for extremely difficult scenarios.

Higher level loyal units, maybe, but otherwise low-levels are more efficient for village-grabbing. Can't forget about that upkeep.

[Yoyobuae]

You can use Ctrl+V to see where can enemies reach (only enemies that are visible, though).

[cephalo]

You can use Ctrl+V to see where can enemies reach (only enemies that are visible, though).

Wow that's a good tip. I've been selecting each enemy, that should save some time.

[cephalo]

Ok, a big reason that I was so disappointed with my guys dying was due to a misconception. I didn't realize at the time that most units cap out at level 3. Even though I didn't think to say it in my post, my main rant was "Man.. I'm never going to get a guy to level 10!"

I didn't realize that getting to level 2 was already more than halfway max level. Now I realize that if level 3 guys are top tier, it's not such a downer to lose a few level 2's on the way, and that not everyone ought to make it to max level.

[Sangel]

Ok, a big reason that I was so disappointed with my guys dying was due to a misconception. I didn't realize at the time that most units cap out at level 3. Even though I didn't think to say it in my post, my main rant was "Man.. I'm never going to get a guy to level 10!"

We all make mistakes like that when we're new.

If you'd like to see the unit trees in their entirety, you can find them at http://units.wesnoth.org/ - click on whatever version you're currently playing, or "Trunk" if you want to see the very latest version that the developers are working on.

[chaoticwanderer]

In general, you'll find that the better you get at the game, the smaller role luck plays.

[Aethaeryn]

Ok, a big reason that I was so disappointed with my guys dying was due to a misconception. I didn't realize at the time that most units cap out at level 3. Even though I didn't think to say it in my post, my main rant was "Man.. I'm never going to get a guy to level 10!"

I didn't realize that getting to level 2 was already more than halfway max level. Now I realize that if level 3 guys are top tier, it's not such a downer to lose a few level 2's on the way, and that not everyone ought to make it to max level.

If you don't want to see the massive spoilers of viewing the unit tree, here's one slight correction:

Some really awesome units can go up to lvl 4.

[lmelior]

You probably fell into the same trap I did. Well, it's not really a trap, but just a way of thinking that needs to be changed:

Battle for Wesnoth is not a strategy RPG.

At first I played it that way, always maxing out as many characters as possible and starting over if I lost any of my high level characters. You can get by that way in the easier scenarios, but you won't make it through difficult ones or multiplayer without being able to modify your strategy. Just like in chess, sacrificing a pile of units for the enemies' pile of units can be the best strategy. I learned this lesson the hard way after many frustrating attempts at playing a certain HttT scenario without losing units. I switched strategies and it was incredibly easy - I sacrificed probably more than a dozen recruits and left most of my high level units on the bench, only recalling a couple units to heal and a couple others to finish the objective.

[wesfreak]

It seems to me that a huge part of your frustration is that you want to know about the advancements. I suggest you go into debug mode (type :debug) and then check the unit descriptions. with debug on, you can see the description of any unit without having to have seen it in battle before.

[Aethaeryn]

It seems to me that a huge part of your frustration is that you want to know about the advancements. I suggest you go into debug mode (type :debug) and then check the unit descriptions. with debug on, you can see the description of any unit without having to have seen it in battle before.

Or you could just type :discover (I think that's the command) and not be tempted to cheat.

[rpell]

For me leveling up units and discovering hidden options is one of the most entertaining aspects of the game.

[Jetrel]

At this point, I'm completely convinced that the perma-loss of L3 units is a broken design; it's a similar thing as I've seen in a number of RPGs. With that much state invested in the character, only a handful of freaks actually let them die.* The other 95% of us immediately save-load the game. Quite a few RPGs have clued into this problem, and allow you to revive a character after a fight; you only perma-die if the whole party dies. Both chrono trigger -and- Secret of Mana; some of the best RPGs ever made, are among them.

Frankly, I think wesnoth should have an optional feature that lets you revive units (for a steep cost) on the next level, if you were sloppy and let them die. I also think wesnoth should frequently, in the final levels of campaigns, just allow you to straight-out hire high-level troops. I think it would be quite welcome to add an official feature for the many people who want it - especially because we're not taking away from the people who don't like it.

For those who want the bragging rights, there would be either a hardcore mode, or an equal thing would be to badge all units that are incapacitated with a purple heart; one for each time. If you want bragging rights, don't let any die.

I think any arguments against this are bunk because it's de-facto already in the game (albeit quite awkward, which is why I'm suggesting the feature). The only people who don't already cheat are the ones who wouldn't use such a feature anyways, so they don't lose anything - I don't think a 'revive' option is any more tempting to their considerable resolve than the "load game" button we already have. I also think the realism argument is quite bunk too; if you're arguing for realism, there shouldn't be any healing in the game, because in real life, most wounds can't be healed, certainly not in medieval times. Magic, for obvious reasons, can't be used to support a realism argument.



*any disputation of the stats is bunk; your counterargument is no more valid than mine; it's all anecdotal evidence. Unless our stats system actually tracks this, in which case it's quite solid evidence.

[Velensk]

Jetrel: I'm a freak because I consider level 3s to be acceptable sacrifices? It's not madness, when I first beat TRoW I had almost a dozen lost level 3s. Now certain level 3s were key and I would start over if I lost them but these were the loyal units and leveled mages whom you had better know that those are rarely worth expending.

This isn't an RPG this is a strategy game. Even on some of the harder campaigns you will rarely need a field full of level 3s. When you do it is generally because you are playing with a highly limited amount of gold. Most campaigns give you enough experience that with the possible exception of the start of the campaign and the final battle you would never be using all your level 3s anyway so you effectively have backups.

[Dave]

At this point, I'm completely convinced that the perma-loss of L3 units is a broken design; it's a similar thing as I've seen in a number of RPGs. With that much state invested in the character, only a handful of freaks actually let them die.

Well, to be fair in Wesnoth there isn't "that much" state invested in a character. A level three unit can be created by killing five level one units and five level two units. This is much different to most RPG's.

Frankly, I think wesnoth should have an optional feature that lets you revive units (for a steep cost) on the next level, if you were sloppy and let them die.

Actually what I'm in favor of is making perma-death much more possible to avert. When a unit's hitpoints reach 0, it should be marked as 'dying', and the hex it is on marked with some kind of symbol. The unit will die within a certain number of turns, unless you move a unit onto the hex, in which case you are able to rescue/heal it, and it will be returned to your recall list for use in later scenarios. It is possible that for a certain number of scenarios afterwards it may be unusable, marked as 'recovering' in the recall list.

I think this system would add some more strategy to the game -- the overhead of having to plan to save fallen units. It would also allow you to fairly easily save units from death if you had some unlucky rolls amidst a fight you were winning. If you mis-strategize and leave some unit isolated against overwhelming odds, however, you risk perma-death.

If we implemented such a thing, I think it should perhaps be balanced by making average experience requirements higher.

David

[doofus-01]

Actually what I'm in favor of is making perma-death much more possible to avert. When a unit's hitpoints reach 0, it should be marked as 'dying', and the hex it is on marked with some kind of symbol. The unit will die within a certain number of turns, unless you move a unit onto the hex, in which case you are able to rescue/heal it, and it will be returned to your recall list for use in later scenarios. It is possible that for a certain number of scenarios afterwards it may be unusable, marked as 'recovering' in the recall list.

For what it's worth, I like that idea.