HUGE Maps

[Araja]

Well, Brotherhood of Light was 100x100 and that need alot of spare time, something twice the size could only be a friend-based level, as it would require several playing sessions.

That being said, a huge multi-world map might be interesting.

"Dammit where are you!?"
"A desert..."
"I'm in some sunken castle"
"Meet in the forest world?"
"Where's that?"
"Ummmm.."

[Mabuse]

speaking of "forest worlds"

- huge maps with 200x200 made by a beginner will end up with huge chunks of forests and same terrain, with about 2 squareSCREENS of forest cluttered around and the like and will have a serious lack of detail which is what makes map interesting to play and look at

an expierienced map maker would know that its simply too big, because he would also have an imagination of how the map would/could play

i have never seen a good (and playable) 200x200 map, (with significant parts of the map being used as a map/playground actually)

so i can just encourage new players to make 500x500 maps becasue they will waste their time and the result will be an epic fail anyways - so go go go for 500x500 map

and i have something to be amused about, -- everybody needs to make his own expieriences

[Qazerowl]

Lets say I was going to spend a VERY long time making a campaign, what do you think the max map size should be?

[Ken_Oh]

No larger than it needs to be.

[MDG]

67.13

[LemonTea]

Using maps that size would make a conquest of the new world type mod possible, if someone wanted to try stuff like that XD

Just because the Wesnoth engine can be used for something doesn't mean that it should...

Never has a map been made that consists entirely of impassable mountains. The question is, SHOULD there be?

[Aethaeryn]

Just because the Wesnoth engine can be used for something doesn't mean that it should...

Never has a map been made that consists entirely of impassable mountains. The question is, SHOULD there be?

Yes.

[PsychoticKittens]

I think that there are things that large maps work for. And the entire "Having to play something with friends only because it has to be save-loaded" being a negative depends entirely on point of view. I find that playing with people I don't know isn't something I enjoy, no matter the size of the map. So if I'm gonna be playing with people I play with everyday, why not take advantage of it and play something where playing consistently gets you more out of the experience?

I will admit making a large map good takes time and effort. Making a small map good takes just as much though.

[mm_]

I think there are (or used to be) GEB maps that are 200*200 in size. Fact is, I never played them, as I thought is is nearly impossible to keep up a game like that on the multiplayer server, so I kept them for a local game some time.
@Araja: Brotherhood of Light was different though, as teleportation allowed you to travel around as you like on a HUGE map. That's what I loved about that scenario: there is so much to explore, but you can meet your fellow mage/your fellow mages any time you like at any place you like.

[TheGreatRings]

Well, Brotherhood of Light was 100x100 and that need alot of spare time, something twice the size could only be a friend-based level, as it would require several playing sessions.

I really, really love that map, and I've sometimes thought about trying to take that kind of map even further, create a whole open-ended world that the player could just explore. To create an entire world, with multiple cities, different regions, etc, is rather difficult to shoehorn into a 200x200 map-believe me, I've tried to work it out. So a huge map like the OP suggests would be great if I ever got around to trying something like that.

It certainly has its uses. Just not for standard Wesnoth multiplayer.

That being said, a huge multi-world map might be interesting.

"Dammit where are you!?"
"A desert..."
"I'm in some sunken castle"
"Meet in the forest world?"
"Where's that?"
"Ummmm.."

Nice.

[CheeseLord]

No BIG maps plz!!!!

For people with older computers like me, large really are a nightmare to load and play. The Fall of Trent was slow on a 1gb laptop, and you couldn't reload it on my 256mb PC. Can you think of how slow a map 200x200 would be???

If you have to make something huge, split it into subsections, with something like 40x40 for each section, so it loads quickly.

CheeseLord

[Aethaeryn]

Feature request then? Being able to break large "world" scenarios down into smaller (50x50?) sections that are only loaded by the computer if you're in or near them, but are linked together by the edges, kind of like a persistent-world MMO (or at least how some of them do it). You could string together 20 50x50 maps to get what is in effect a 1000x1000 map, but to the computer it wouldn't be that much more demanding than a 50x50 map.

The result, of course, is to get a campaign that does not have any clean scenario breaks, and you never have that "You are Victorious" thing until the end. Rather, the scenarios (and the objectives) change as you progress in this world. Another result is a massive RPG that you would literally spend weeks or months on, but you would never need to change scenario in.

Of course, someone needs to start work on the add-on first, and then convince a dev that it's worthwhile to code.

[AI]

You can already [replace_map], you just have to relocate the units manually for this.

[Gambit]

Because I am obbsessed with player freedom and creeping featurism and biggyness in general I've waited a while to chime in here so I could make a giant post and then not come back to bug anymore Plus mm_ spoke of the devil and so I am here

I think there are (or used to be) GEB maps that are 200*200 in size. Fact is, I never played them, as I thought is is nearly impossible to keep up a game like that on the multiplayer server, so I kept them for a local game some time.

Fear not. There are 13 teleporters on this map. Step on one and pick another one to go to.
I am not as big a dunce while coding/designing as I am while talking on these forums (IMO )

me bragging about all my hardwork. not essential to post:

I made it so you have to start out near a teleporter. Everyone gets to pick their own at the begining of the map. And you will naturally build out from it. You can attack your opponents across the huge 200x200 map if they're nearby (ships have 20 moves and can carry 15 troops each btw) or you can teleport your army in stargate style (some stargates have iris's). And naturally everyone will fortify around their stargates to make this harder. You end up (after a while) with a large country built with fortified around the outside and with many farms and villages in the middle with one or more stargates located inside the border but closer to the edges so nobody can strike at your heart.

Through use of the teleporters, ships, Great Wall of China's (large strings of castle that you can recruit anywhere onto), and "Church Highways" (putting a church every 15-19 spaces so that you can boost across them all in a single turn) it turns into a small world after all.

Bragging and such out of the way. I don't think you'd see that many maps larger than 200x200. You don't see many maps now that are bigger than 75x75. The wesnoth community just doesn't have enough patience to play maps like this. People never ever want to re-load anything more than one time. And although imho I pulled off an epic map in GEB my solutions just wouldn't be practical anywhere else. Church stringing and great walls only work in building scenarios. Ships do work but don't always fit the story and are clumsy to code. The only sure fire way to do it is teleporters and these sometimes come off as cheesy. Especially in GEB. Why are there big glowy things everywhere?

The only good thing that comes out of epic maps is that HAPMA can go screw itself.

What The Great Rings talked about is also quite difficult. As I learned with WesPets (not going to brag this time). It's not good enough to give people a huge map. A sandbox is not a sandbox if it's empty. You have to give them things to do and reasons to keep exploring. Just populating a 200x200 map with random groups of AI barbarians is daunting let alone cramming a unique bit of story or quest in every nook. It also isn't good enough to allow them to customize their character if they have no reason. There has to be some story or reward for becoming strong or for wearing certain items.

This is one more reason why in multiplayer (IMHO) not even RPGs can fill an epic map. In building scenarios and building scenarios alone, the player make their own story.

"Dammit where are you!?"
"A desert..."
"I'm in some sunken castle"
"Meet in the forest world?"
"Where's that?"
"Ummmm.."

This is one reason that shroud is a god awful thing on large maps. If anything actually comes out of my reply I hope that this is it. Epic maps cannot have shroud. You will not explore every corner. EVER. You have to have a direction in mind. Fog is one thing but to have a massive 200x200 black box is stifling. It gives the user digital claustrophobia.



The original discussion was just having very very large maps. You can actually do this, by hand. As was pointed out to me when I asked about this there are already maps in the core single player that are slightly larger than 200x200. It is only the editor that does not go bigger [so I was told].

If someone were to write a program to combine wesnoth maps...

bragging about the future that might never happen. again nonessential:

Also the thing Aetheryn suggested two posts ago is sort of what I wanted to accomplish with GEB's campaign. Possibly this summer when I'm not drowning in schoolwork. I have a helper now
You would basically revisit the same half dozen or so scenario files and maps repeatedly. Variables would keep track of where you're at in the campaigns story. All maps would be connected by roads and such because they are supposed to be connected. It would also save each map before you leave (store it in a variable) so it would keep your terrain changes and rather than a recall list you would right click to set which units are coming with you and which arent.

[TheGreatRings]

Bragging and such out of the way. I don't think you'd see that many maps larger than 200x200. You don't see many maps now that are bigger than 75x75. The wesnoth community just doesn't have enough patience to play maps like this. People never ever want to re-load anything more than one time. And although imho I pulled off an epic map in GEB my solutions just wouldn't be practical anywhere else. Church stringing and great walls only work in building scenarios. Ships do work but don't always fit the story and are clumsy to code. The only sure fire way to do it is teleporters and these sometimes come off as cheesy. Especially in GEB. Why are there big glowy things everywhere?

With regards to the Wesnoth community not having patience for such huge maps, I would guess that the kinds of games that would benefit from them would be rather different from what Wesnoth is typically used for (ie RPGs as opposed to tactical games). So it might appeal to a different crowd than the typical Wesnoth player.

Anyway, you've now got me thinking about how to incorporate walls and teleporters everywhere without it seeming cheesy. Thanks for giving my mind something to occupy it.

What The Great Rings talked about is also quite difficult.

Don't think I'm not aware of it. Why do you think I haven't tried to put it in to practice yet? Because I don't have a few months to devote to this, that's why.

As I learned with WesPets (not going to brag this time). It's not good enough to give people a huge map. A sandbox is not a sandbox if it's empty. You have to give them things to do and reasons to keep exploring. Just populating a 200x200 map with random groups of AI barbarians is daunting let alone cramming a unique bit of story or quest in every nook. It also isn't good enough to allow them to customize their character if they have no reason. There has to be some story or reward for becoming strong or for wearing certain items.

This is one more reason why in multiplayer (IMHO) not even RPGs can fill an epic map. In building scenarios and building scenarios alone, the player make their own story.

All this does not mean its impossible. Merely that it would take a great deal of time and effort. I personally think that if someone tried it with Wesnoth, it would be worthwhile. But I'm not surprised if nobody has the time or level of commitment, as unfortunate as it is.