Level 0 units

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hhyloc
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Level 0 units

Post by hhyloc »

Sorry if I post this in a wrong thread, I think this is the most suitable place to put it:
So I wonder why Undead faction has two level 0 units are Vampire Bat and Walking Corpse, Northerners has a level 0 unit is Goblin, then why Loyalists, Knalgan Alliance, Rebels and Drakes don't have any level 0 unit? May be about balance? :?:
I think each faction should have at least one level 0 unit, here is my suggestion about them:
Loyalists: Peasant
Knalgan Alliance: Ruffian or sometype of "Dwarvish Worker"
Rebels: Maybe some type of "Elvish Citizen"
Drakes: Hatchling (I think I saw this unit in a UMC named "Flight to Freedom", Maybe it worth to be added to mainline)
Of course new unit mean new sprite and portrait, It just my thought...
Also I think the mainline's campaign miss one about Drakes, so I suggest "Flight to Freedom" added to the mainline. No no I'm not the creator of that campaign
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by Ken_Oh »

hhyloc wrote:May be about balance? :?:
I think that's the general reason, yes.

You haven't offered any reason for the rest of the factions to get level 0s other than the fact that 2 factions have them. That's not a great argument.

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Re: Level 0 units

Post by hhyloc »

Ken_Oh wrote:
I think that's the general reason, yes.

You haven't offered any reason for the rest of the factions to get level 0s other than the fact that 2 factions have them. That's not a great argument.
Yes I know but I just wonder why and my suggest just I a thought pop out me head, I don't really "suggest" If it was a suggestion, I would have post it in Ideas thread.
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by StDrake »

Agreed fully that drakes need more campaign love :) but as much as I liked Flight to Freedom it's a bit too naive for mainline. Just doesn't fit the style.

Speaking of style, think - would it make sense for other faction to send out lev 0s to battle? Drakes style of play forces to depend on endurant strong units and a heavy blow or heavy loss tactic, elves are brittle peaceful creatures and there's not much room for their civilians on the battlefield. Dwarfs are quite tough on their own so i doubt even making a lev 0 would make sense. Peasant rush? well that could be fun but they're not used to fighting usually.
Lev 0 units reflect classes of creatures that regularly go out to fight though not matching the quality of regular soldiers. Other factions just don't have those.
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by Skrim »

StDrake wrote:Agreed fully that drakes need more campaign love :) but as much as I liked Flight to Freedom it's a bit too naive for mainline. Just doesn't fit the style.
Well, Drakes do appear in the second half or so of Northern Rebirth, were, at least in my experience, they are extremely useful. Not much dialogue on their part, though. Maybe they just don't like to talk a lot.
Lev 0 units reflect classes of creatures that regularly go out to fight though not matching the quality of regular soldiers. Other factions just don't have those.
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hhyloc wrote:Sorry if I post this in a wrong thread, I think this is the most suitable place to put it:
So I wonder why Undead faction has two level 0 units are Vampire Bat and Walking Corpse, Northerners has a level 0 unit is Goblin, then why Loyalists, Knalgan Alliance, Rebels and Drakes don't have any level 0 unit? May be about balance? :?:
I think each faction should have at least one level 0 unit, here is my suggestion about them:
Loyalists: Peasant
Knalgan Alliance: Ruffian or sometype of "Dwarvish Worker"
Rebels: Maybe some type of "Elvish Citizen"
Drakes: Hatchling (I think I saw this unit in a UMC named "Flight to Freedom", Maybe it worth to be added to mainline)
Peasants and Woodsmen, wherever they appear, represent situations where human civilians are faced with war without even proper armament or training and are yet determined to fight it out to defend their homes - like in the first mission of NR, and in TSG and TRoW. Although, they will take up their conventional weaponry of spears and bows and leather armor as soon as possible(hence the ability to level-up into regular Loyalist units).

Ruffians are the same idea, except, instead of civilians in a last-ditch effort to protect their homes, they're small-time outlaws instead. They're even more poorly armed than law-abiding peasants and relatively skilled woodsmen, but they are also even cheaper to hire.

Goblin Spearmen are actually regular soldiers. The fact that they are still level-0s reflects the sheer puniness of the goblin race. They are significantly frailer than full Orcs, and are also very poorly armed. Even the veteran goblins(Rousers and Impalers) are flimsier than the level-1 units of any of the major races.

Walking Corpses are basic necromantic creations. They're not real soldiers at all, just standard-issue zombies made from corpses of dead creatures. They have no training or armament or skill. Their offensive power is derived solely from magic, and fairly weak magic at that. Compare this with Skeleton-type units, which(according to their higher-level versions' descriptions) inherit the skill of the being who's soul is locked within them, and are armed with axes or bows.

Bats are small flying rodents being controlled by necromancers to do scouting jobs for them. They obviously do not have much combat strength. It is impressive that they have as much as they do, though the bats in the Wesnoth-verse are nothing like the bats in real life apart from their appearance.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

The Elves do not a level-0 unit. According to their unit descriptions, whenever faced with war, they can rapidly train themselves at basic swordsmanship and archery and take up weapons and light armor. Hence they become Elvish Fighters or Archers, which are level-1s. And anyway, an unarmed, untrained civilian Elf would probably flee instead of try to make a suicidal effort to hold their ground, unlike a human peasant.

The Dwarves have a similar situation. They just pick up their axes and hammers, don some armor, and become Dwarvish Fighters if they have no other choice. They anyway have a somewhat more brute-force approach to combat than Elves or Humans(who rely more on training and equipment), and thus any Dwarf who is of age can be counted to be at least level-1.

The Drakes are also just like the Dwarves. All they need to do is pick up some War Blades and some of their leather/ceramic armor and head out, as Drake Fighters. Even the Drakes' civilian skills can be put to use for war - their lawmen, the Clashers, and their hunters, the Gliders, can be deployed to the battlefield whenever needed. And the Drakes who have above-average skill with their internal fire(the Burners) don't even need war blades - they just get some armor and head out to war using their inherent fire breath and natural claws as their weapons.
Basically, the Drakes are also at least level-1.
Last edited by Skrim on September 17th, 2009, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Level 0 units

Post by thespaceinvader »

Balance is the primary reason. Flavour is another - the undead and orcs have level 0 units who are designed to be high-number, low-effectiveness cannon fodder as befits their faction background. The others don't.

There are various other level 0s, including loyalists (peasant, woodsman) and outlaws (ruffian) which show up in campaigns, and a number of projects have attempted to make level 0s for all units, in UMC. They won't go into mainline MP, for reasons already described.
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by Kalajel »

Don't the Loyalist already have peasants and the knalgan ruffians as level 0 units or was that changed in 1.6+?

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Re: Level 0 units

Post by thespaceinvader »

Not in MP.
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by The Great Rings »

StDrake wrote:Agreed fully that drakes need more campaign love :) but as much as I liked Flight to Freedom it's a bit too naive for mainline. Just doesn't fit the style.
What does "too naive" mean? I wasn't aware of a policy that required mainline campaigns to be dark and cynical.
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by The Great Rings »

hhyloc wrote:Sorry if I post this in a wrong thread, I think this is the most suitable place to put it:
So I wonder why Undead faction has two level 0 units are Vampire Bat and Walking Corpse, Northerners has a level 0 unit is Goblin, then why Loyalists, Knalgan Alliance, Rebels and Drakes don't have any level 0 unit? May be about balance? :?:
Yes, no doubt.
I think each faction should have at least one level 0 unit, here is my suggestion about them:
Loyalists: Peasant
Loyalists do have both peasant and woodsman. They feature heavily in Northern Rebirth as you're probably aware (primarily the first scenario where they're all you can recruit), and I'm using them for the campaign I'm writing now. They just don't happen to be recruitable in multiplayer, but the multiplayer factions have never perfectly matched any of the campaign factions. Its probably all about balance, which means its unlikely to change.
Knalgan Alliance: Ruffian or sometype of "Dwarvish Worker"
Ruffian would make sense, seeing as it would save work on making a new unit.
Rebels: Maybe some type of "Elvish Citizen"
I don't know. Level zero units tend to rely on being cheap, expendable, and numerous. I'm not sure it fits the elves to be using their civillians as hordes of canon fodder. And a level 0 elvish unit would be freaking weak, except in numbers.
Drakes: Hatchling (I think I saw this unit in a UMC named "Flight to Freedom", Maybe it worth to be added to mainline)
No comment. I know very little about Drakes other than the fact that appear to be big fire breathing reptiles, who seem to be kind of isolationist in the campaigns.
Of course new unit mean new sprite and portrait, It just my thought...
Also I think the mainline's campaign miss one about Drakes, so I suggest "Flight to Freedom" added to the mainline. No no I'm not the creator of that campaign
Haven't played it, but so long as it doesn't conflict with established Wesnoth history, I can't see any reason not to add a drake campaign.
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by gorgolok »

As a loyalist, I wouldn't really want to use peasants. A unit for 8 gold that has trouble surviving and needs 2 kills to level into a unit that only costs 14 gold seems like a waste. Woodsmen are even more expensive at 10 gold, and they're trouble as they can evolve into bowmen and poachers, mixing up different factions. Again, a 3-4 gold difference to the leveled form would make recruiting them kinda silly anyway. Ruffians might be worth it considering the cost, then again they can turn into thugs, which I assume aren't included in the faction for a reason. Of course you could try to restrict the leveling possibilities, so a loyalist woodsman couldn't level into a poacher.

The way I see it, the level 0 units in the factions add something that wouldn't otherwise be there, they level into something that you can't get any other way, and their leveling is capped at level 1. (correct me if I'm wrong, but the dread bat is campaigns only, and doesn't apply to mp factions, right?). That way they add flavor, and, in the case of the goblins, a melee-pierce attack Northerners would otherwise lack.

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Re: Level 0 units

Post by Zachron »

Although for fighting horsemen, the ranged pierce attack works just as well. It's just as well that the factions that don't have level 0's recruitable don't. Take for instance, an underpowered drake that can slash, burn, and fly, that doesn't cost as much as the rest and has no upkeep. It would be like a bat on crack, worse, it would toast bats and elf-scouts alike, making drakes the supreme village takers(a title they already contend for).
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Re: Level 0 units

Post by Dave »

Why do only some factions have flying units? Why do only some have swimming units? Why do only some have healing units, and only some have poisoning units?

Because we want to make our factions interesting and varied, and one of the distinctive things about orcs and undead is the concept of roaming hordes of numerous but individually weak zombies/goblins.

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Re: Level 0 units

Post by mm_ »

You spoke about Elvish Citizens as a lvl 0 unit for Rebels. Have you played the "Attack from the Unknown" campaign? It has an Elvish Citizen in your recruit list. If you havn't, here's it's attack and HP:
22 HP
needs 25 XP to level to fighter, hunter or archer
5 movement
4-3 blade melee
3-2 pierce ranged
8 gold

I thought it a very usefulunit on the campaign, but if it was taken for Rebels in MP, I would prefer it to have a different level-up. :hmm:

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Re: Level 0 units

Post by Aethaeryn »

mm_ wrote:I thought it a very usefulunit on the campaign, but if it was taken for Rebels in MP, I would prefer it to have a different level-up. :hmm:
And that's the problem with "good guy" lvl 0s, whether they are mainlined or not: they promote into their own, standard lvl 1s. This is a huge advantage over goblins and corpses, who both max out at a unique lvl 1.
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