Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

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Skrim
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Skrim »

Think of how ghosts attack with arcane hits, its not because their strikes are holy or unholy or what ever.
Truly, we have no idea what "Arcane" damage really is.

I feel like a short-order collection of all Arcane users and Arcane-vulnerable entities, so as to make it a bit clear as to what we know about this damage type. Note that the very word "Arcane" means "understood only by a few".

The users of Arcane magic include the Dark Adept line(Shadow Wave), the Lich(Touch), the Ghost/Wraith line(Touch, Baneblade), the White Mage line(Lightbeam), the Mermaid Priestess line(again Lightbeam), the Elvish Sorceress line(Faerie Fire), the Elvish Lord line(again Faerie Fire), and the Paladin(Sword).

The creatures vulnerable to Arcane magic include skeletal Undead(-50%), spirit-form Undead(-10%, effectively -60%), zombie-form Undead(-40%), Drakes(-30%), Woses(-30%), Trolls(-10%), Elves(-10%) and several Monsters. The creatures specifically resistant to Arcane include Humans(20%), Saurians(20%), and surprisingly, Ghouls(20%). The White Mage line, Elvish Sorceress line, and Paladin all become resistant against Arcane as they level up.


This short mini-analysis leads me to come to a conclusion for now that "Arcane" is some form of magical energy present in the Wesnoth-verse that cannot be analogized to anything present in the real world. There are no lore or balance reasons I can think of why the Silver Mage should suddenly become capable of wielding Arcane magic.

And in case anyone tries to compare Lightbeams to lasers, well, real-world laser weapons happen to do thermal damage, which is nothing really special or exotic, just concentrated heat.
Max2008 wrote:now that's really unfair, poor magi^^
Isn't it unfair how a single Necromancer can go around controlling vast armies of Undead to do his bidding, crushing villages and massacring people at will, and eventually gaining immortality through Lichdom, while a supposedly mighty Arch Mage's power is limited to just throwing fireballs?؟

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Zarel
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Zarel »

Skrim wrote:Truly, we have no idea what "Arcane" damage really is.

I feel like a short-order collection of all Arcane users and Arcane-vulnerable entities, so as to make it a bit clear as to what we know about this damage type. Note that the very word "Arcane" means "understood only by a few".

The users of Arcane magic include the Dark Adept line(Shadow Wave), the Lich(Touch), the Ghost/Wraith line(Touch, Baneblade), the White Mage line(Lightbeam), the Mermaid Priestess line(again Lightbeam), the Elvish Sorceress line(Faerie Fire), the Elvish Lord line(again Faerie Fire), and the Paladin(Sword).

The creatures vulnerable to Arcane magic include skeletal Undead(-50%), spirit-form Undead(-10%, effectively -60%), zombie-form Undead(-40%), Drakes(-30%), Woses(-30%), Trolls(-10%), Elves(-10%) and several Monsters. The creatures specifically resistant to Arcane include Humans(20%), Saurians(20%), and surprisingly, Ghouls(20%). The White Mage line, Elvish Sorceress line, and Paladin all become resistant against Arcane as they level up.
You know, I've always thought of arcane as chemical damage. It makes sense for most of your list.
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Araja
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Araja »

chemical damage makes sense for none of them :/

Molean
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Molean »

There are no lore or balance reasons I can think of why the Silver Mage should suddenly become capable of wielding Arcane magic.
Magi learn new spells as time goes in in any magic user mythology I've ever heard of. A advance magic user would have many spells at his/her command, not just one. So they would learn it of course. It would also make sense with their built in arcane resistance and their silver color which is similar to white mages who use arcane.

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Skrim
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Skrim »

Molean wrote:Magi learn new spells as time goes in in any magic user mythology I've ever heard of. A advance magic user would have many spells at his/her command, not just one.
They do this in Wesnoth also. Attack types aren't the only things that count as 'spells'. Abilities also count.
A White Mage learns how to Cure, Heal, use Lightbeams and resist Arcane attacks. A Mage of Light learns how to Illuminate, wield a flail, and further resist Arcane attacks. A Silver Mage learns how to Teleport, and how to resist Fire and Cold attacks to a significant degree.
Dark Sorcerors learn how to raise Level 1 Undead. Liches learn how to become a Lich(duh!). Necromancers learn how to raise Walking Corpses without spending gold(which is presumably a spell ingredient in normal recruits).
I'm sure Arch Magi and Great Magi gain new abilities over time too, it's just that we never get to see them in battle.

As for the color of the various Mages robes, it's just a cliched fantasyism. White is generically good and lawful and holy, so the White Mage is your lawful good order-seeking healer. Silver generally signifies speed, and the Silver Mage is the fastest unit in the game when it is able to use it's Teleport ability. Black is generically evil and chaotic and unholy, so Dark Sorcerers wear somewhat tattered black robes. Red signifies fire and, possibly, power, so Red Mages and their advancements wear red. And the brown robes worn by Level 1 Mages signifies that they are still apprentices, neophytes, noobs who have much to learn.
Last edited by Skrim on August 8th, 2009, 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Molean
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Molean »

In a game all about battle, its only what we see there that really counts. Anyway said magic users tend to learn more then one attack spell and other spells that can be used in combat, as well.

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Aethaeryn
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Aethaeryn »

Iirc, arcane is supposed to be some kind of antimagic. Creatures sustained only by magic (undead) are most vulnerable. Magical creatures who have magic in their blood (elves an drakes) are also vulnerable. Humans are by nature unmagical and don't tap into an inner-magic but rather use spells to utilize the outer magics. This explains partly why humans often gain resistances in a particular damage type as they know more of that magic. Therefore, the arcane resistance or weakness could be seen as one's natural magic ability. The standard of magical ability is not humans, as one might expect, but instead orcs, who have 0% arcane resist. :P

As for silver mages, it's fine that they keep fire damage. Both KISS and balance say that they should keep the same damage type. Of course, if you're going to add another damage type just for the sake of it, or because of some attempt to apply realism to a MAGIC USING unit, call it "silver" and make it do double damage to werewolves. :roll:
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Skrim
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Skrim »

Aethaeryn wrote:This explains partly why humans often gain resistances in a particular damage type as they know more of that magic.
Good point. That explanation works well for all the Magi, except for the Necromancer, who does not gain any Cold resistance(although the Lich gets a nice 60%). It works for the Paladin too.

Now we just need something along those lines to explain how the Javelineer and Pikeman get their 40% Pierce resistances(esp. when the Jav wears studded leather, not even real steel). :roll: ؟

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Aethaeryn
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Aethaeryn »

Skrim wrote:
Aethaeryn wrote:This explains partly why humans often gain resistances in a particular damage type as they know more of that magic.
Good point. That explanation works well for all the Magi, except for the Necromancer, who does not gain any Cold resistance(although the Lich gets a nice 60%). It works for the Paladin too.
Obviously the evil cold magics are harsher on you than the traditional magics. They make you prematurely age, for instance, since it slowly drains your life force. Silver Mages get the resist for cold because they know protection magic. In fact, Silver Mages gain two spells: protection and teleport. They don't need to learn another attack spell. Only those small-minded evil mages (dark adept line) need attack/battle magic. Liches, of course, get cold resist because they're already dead and so the detrimental effects of the dark arts no longer apply to them.
Skrim wrote:Now we just need something along those lines to explain how the Javelineer and Pikeman get their 40% Pierce resistances(esp. when the Jav wears studded leather, not even real steel). :roll: ؟
The answer is even simpler: a wizard mage did it. Enchanted armor. ;)

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mabeenot
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by mabeenot »

Skrim wrote:The users of Arcane magic include the Dark Adept line(Shadow Wave), the Lich(Touch), the Ghost/Wraith line(Touch, Baneblade), the White Mage line(Lightbeam), the Mermaid Priestess line(again Lightbeam), the Elvish Sorceress line(Faerie Fire), the Elvish Lord line(again Faerie Fire), and the Paladin(Sword).
Wait... Faerie Fire is arcane, yet the similar glowing orbs mages and silver mages use are not?
Skrim wrote:As for the color of the various Mages robes, it's just a cliched fantasyism. White is generically good and lawful and holy, so the White Mage is your lawful good order-seeking healer. Silver generally signifies speed, and the Silver Mage is the fastest unit in the game when it is able to use it's Teleport ability. Black is generically evil and chaotic and unholy, so Dark Sorcerers wear somewhat tattered black robes. Red signifies fire and, possibly, power, so Red Mages and their advancements wear red. And the brown robes worn by Level 1 Mages signifies that they are still apprentices, neophytes, noobs who have much to learn.
But the silver mages don't really look "silver" or even gray for that matter. The silver mages come out of the red mage line yet they wear the robes of a white mage. And to mess things up even more, they use an upgraded version of the regular mage's attack. Are silver mages just confused about their identity?

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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Ken_Oh »

Skrim wrote:Truly, we have no idea what "Arcane" damage really is.
One of the candidates for the renaming of Holy was Dispell. Arcane can best be described as magic that mainly negates magic. This is why more mundane races (humans, orcs, dwarves) are less effected by it and those that are more magical (Elves, Trolls, Woses, Undead) are more effected by it. However, things that are innately magic are often those that employ the Arcane damage type. Think of it as the oldest and most basic form of damaging magic.

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Skrim
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Skrim »

mabeenot wrote:Wait... Faerie Fire is arcane, yet the similar glowing orbs mages and silver mages use are not?
Yes, Faerie Fire is Arcane and Missile is Fire. What's wrong with that?
Ken_Oh wrote:One of the candidates for the renaming of Holy was Dispell. Arcane can best be described as magic that mainly negates magic. This is why more mundane races (humans, orcs, dwarves) are less effected by it and those that are more magical (Elves, Trolls, Woses, Undead) are more effected by it. However, things that are innately magic are often those that employ the Arcane damage type. Think of it as the oldest and most basic form of damaging magic.
Ahh.. interesting.

To be inherently present in the blood of Elves, Trolls, and Drakes/Dragons, Arcane magic must be really, really old.

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Araja
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Araja »

I thought it was holy magic back then? :P

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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by Aethaeryn »

mabeenot wrote:
Skrim wrote:The users of Arcane magic include the Dark Adept line(Shadow Wave), the Lich(Touch), the Ghost/Wraith line(Touch, Baneblade), the White Mage line(Lightbeam), the Mermaid Priestess line(again Lightbeam), the Elvish Sorceress line(Faerie Fire), the Elvish Lord line(again Faerie Fire), and the Paladin(Sword).
Wait... Faerie Fire is arcane, yet the similar glowing orbs mages and silver mages use are not?
The elves use faerie magic. No human will ever be able to understand that arcane form of magic. Don't compare the mundane human magic with the mystical and powerful magic of the elves, they're very different.
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Re: Why does the Silver Mage use fire?

Post by ilor »

Aethaeryn wrote:The elves use faerie magic. No human will ever be able to understand that arcane form of magic.
Until, of course, the plot requires it ;)

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