This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

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Halistar
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This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Halistar »

So in my quest to beat an AI with +18 gold, I came up with a strategy involving goblins, yes, those weaklings. Now one might ask, how could they be useful, and the answer is, they take no upkeep. So by keeping only as many units as you have villages, you maximize your income, and thus goblin production. It makes for a hard start of the game, but if you manage to hold your ground, it works pretty well. After beating an AI with +18 gold, I decided to try the web, and the results are attached. Yes, I had over 80 goblins. I wish to thank Duseldorff, my opponent for being patient, and I give him credit for attempting to assassinate my leader with some sunken skeletons. I hope you enjoyed the hoard. I'm glad you found it as amusing as I did.
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Cataphract
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Cataphract »

Why didn't he spam zombies? You would've been so screwed! :mrgreen:
Sangel
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Sangel »

That IS a lot of goblins. :o
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Dragonchampion
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Dragonchampion »

And this truly is why the dwarves lost Moria...
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Matthi205
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Matthi205 »

:shock: Ill try that with peasants or... squires!(Longbows MP era)
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Eolith
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Eolith »

I thought the dwarves lost Moria due to the Balrog. Perhaps I misremembered...

Anyway, I do not think my computer can handle that many units at once. It slows down a great deal about the time I reach 40 units, not that one could not acquire 80 level 1s or 2s...
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JW
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by JW »

This is why level 0s need some sort of upkeep..... :?

And yes, I am serious.
palloco
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by palloco »

JW wrote:This is why level 0s need some sort of upkeep..... :?

And yes, I am serious.
Sorry, I don't see they reason for that anywhere in this thread
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JW
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by JW »

palloco wrote:
JW wrote:This is why level 0s need some sort of upkeep..... :?

And yes, I am serious.
Sorry, I don't see they reason for that anywhere in this thread
Edit: level 0 spam....did you really miss that reason? It's the reason this thread exists..... :?
palloco
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by palloco »

So what about lvl1 units spam? Should we increase their upkeep as well? There are people who spam outlaw units or grunts, and these spams are far more effective than gobos or wc.
The only reason to change the upkeep of some units is because the game is unbalanced. And a game against AI and a random player tells no information about the balance of the game.
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JW
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by JW »

palloco wrote:So what about lvl1 units spam? Should we increase their upkeep as well? There are people who spam outlaw units or grunts, and these spams are far more effective than gobos or wc.
The only reason to change the upkeep of some units is because the game is unbalanced. And a game against AI and a random player tells no information about the balance of the game.
I'm going to refuse to become you by arguing with you. You clearly lack a lot of insight. Try rereading...no wait...try reading the opening post and think about why lvl 0 spam is different than "level 1 spam." :annoyed:

I now leave you to your own devices.
Caphriel
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Caphriel »

palloco wrote:So what about lvl1 units spam? Should we increase their upkeep as well? There are people who spam outlaw units or grunts, and these spams are far more effective than gobos or wc.
The only reason to change the upkeep of some units is because the game is unbalanced. And a game against AI and a random player tells no information about the balance of the game.
L0 unit spam can theoretically (and as proved by this thread, in practice) achieve numbers of units that L1+ units cannot achieve, because the upkeep costs would reduce your income to nothing. He played that game against another human, not an AI. L0 spam is similar to gold hoarding, except that you actually have units on the field, in addition to low or nonexistent upkeep costs.
palloco
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by palloco »

Caphriel wrote:L0 unit spam can theoretically (and as proved by this thread, in practice) achieve numbers of units that L1+ units cannot achieve, because the upkeep costs would reduce your income to nothing.
No, you can achieve the same number of units, although never at the same time because lvl0 units are cheaper and you dont need to earn additional income for the turns in which you will lose money while you are recruiting units.
Caphriel wrote:L0 spam is similar to gold hoarding, except that you actually have units on the field, in addition to low or nonexistent upkeep costs.
So what is the difference between having units in the field or not if you dont use them?
Why do most of the people buy units whenever they have gold? That clearly shows a lack of business skills. Stockpiling is a way of losing money.

If you spam lvl0 units either the enemy can easily crash you at the beginning or he can wait till the conditions are optimal to spam lvl1 units and crash you.
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Gambit
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Gambit »

By "crash you" I hope you don't refer to computers...

Just thinking that there might be someone out there devious enough to overload their opponents computer to claim some sort of win gives me the whillies. :?

And no. lvl1 spam != lvl0 spam. There are only so many villages on a map...
Caphriel
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Re: This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

Post by Caphriel »

There are no maps you can achieve 80 level 1 units with normal recruiting on (except maybe Cynsaun Battlefield) without hoarding gold. As soon as level1_units = 3*villages_you_control (on most maps), your income drops to zero. On most maps, that's a cap of less than 30 units, and to reach that, you'll probably have to hoard a bit anyway. If you hoard gold, that means your not buying units to keep your upkeep low and your income high. Doing this results in you eventually getting more gold than your opponent, which you then use to recruit a lot of units at once, gaining you a unit advantage. However, while you are hoarding gold, you have less units on the field than your opponent, so you are forced to play defensively and are vulnerable to a strong attack (which usually forces the hoarder to recruit.)

However, if you are recruiting level 0 units, you gain the same no-upkeep effect as if you were hoarding, but you have units on the field which makes it harder for your opponent to attack you and gives you attacking chances. That's the difference of having units in the field vs. hoarding gold. Stockpiling gold gains you money, not loses you money.

If your opponent tries to hoard gold vs your massed level 0 units, you can attack him. You seem to think that massing level 0 units starts with your first recruits, which is incorrect - it usually starts after you have the maximum number of level 1 units you can have without paying upkeep, which prevents you from being overrun at the beginning.

I'm not arguing that this needs to change; I've seen l0 hoards beaten as well as victorious. I'm just trying to explain JD's point, although it seems like you don't understand how upkeep works :?
Last edited by Caphriel on April 27th, 2010, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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