Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

General feedback and discussion of the game.

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PhilipN
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Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by PhilipN » May 1st, 2009, 3:13 am

I recently went to the beach and found some pieces of PVC pipe that were encased in padding and wrapped with duct tape (these were obviously made for the purpose of swordfighting). There was another guy who proved to be a fairly even match for me (one of the "swords" was broken and he used both halves while I used the single longsword). Sometimes I won, and sometimes he won. There were some other people there who were not even matches for us (some were better, and some were worse), and they lost more/less often against us than we did against each other. Nevertheless, sometimes the obviously inferior swordfighter would win. Now in a real sword duel with real lethal weapons (that do "blade" damage, btw), there are no rematches once a fighter is dead; the outcome of the first battle is permanent. Which fighter wins? Does the more skilled fighter win, as he could be expected to? Or does his inferior opponent have such luck that the duel turns out to be one of the 20% or so that he might win, if the swordfight could hypothetically be repeated numerous times?

As you can see, it makes sense that in a battle, with numerous combatants taking on numerous opponents, some fighters from both sides will win, and both sides will suffer casualties as a result. One side may have more combatants for whom today is their lucky day, and this may or may not turn the fight. This is more complicated if the sides are not evenly matched either in numbers or in the skill and strength of their soldiers, and may be especially complicated in a situation where one side is outnumbered but has more skilled soldiers. Of course, the "leveling" in Wesnoth is realistic too, as a soldier who is lucky enough to survive some hand-to-hand combat will begin to get the hang of what he is doing, thus increasing his odds of surviving longer (and decreasing the odds of his enemies surviving). Of course, the first few minutes of combat for an untrained or semi-trained combatant will show the most improvement, as a seasoned veteran must spend much more time on the battlefield to improve enough to affect his chances of survival beyond what they are already. This matches Wesnoth's general rule that it takes more experience to level up a unit that has already been leveled up.

I know that we aren't supposed to make arguments from "realism" (such logic would lead to arguments against having fantasy races such as elves and dwarves), but this "luck rationale" seems to fit the game well, and shows that the rules under which the game is played seem quite appropriate given the nature of the game (although I am sure that there will be those who are inclined to disagree, and in the interest of avoiding a flame war I will readily acknowledge your right to respectfully do so).

randomdragoon
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Joined: February 27th, 2009, 8:00 am

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by randomdragoon » May 1st, 2009, 6:25 am

Excellent points. I have to disagree about your realism argument for leveling however, as in real life you tend to get better gradually and not in noticable jumps. (And don't even try to explain away the full heal...)

Darkmage
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Darkmage » May 2nd, 2009, 4:40 pm

About gradually leveling up fixes more to a rpg but if you like the dynamics of this game and gradually improving yourself, you may give a chance to wesband add-on, it only needs modular era.

About "luck" you should know the game won't change but this is not so significant, i you have an elvish archer on a forest, and attcas another archer, you'll notice most of the times it won't be hit, and things should structured more like keeping the most of your units in favourable terrain instead of a worst one, but that doesn't mean thei're invincible, of course if you want to save a unit which is badly injuried, 5 hp on most, is like if you have all your body in the worst conditions, you can't imagine that being on forest is a live insurance but it only helps to protect it...

You said being on the coast and fight, supposing you're covered with water to your hips or over your defensive capacity will be lowed, imagine, me, i would like to manage some weapons, supose i'm not good at swordfighting but have some kind of idea(me = lvl0) and you trained by some frinds and yourself(i don't know you but imagine) and you have a more depth knowledge of the using of this weapon(sword)(you = lvl1). Well you on water to the hip and me on sand, your movement will be reduced to and you'll hardly will block me, and movement is slower in water, as for me the damage i deal you is low because i don't control my weapon but not being on water eases my movements, only the sand makes me slip so i hav an advantage on terrain but no about damage inflicted, of course you may not attack any dragon with fire.

I do think the combat system is great, just take a look to defense on terrain and resistances, and, you know many people complain of being hitten 3 times of 4 tries while being on 60% but noone says anything about hitting all your 5 hits on any enemy on 50% defense.

And after all if you still thinking the game is based on luck download the less luck era or create your own, but the system is not going to change...

The Great Rings
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Location: On the front line of battle, defying hopeless odds

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by The Great Rings » May 2nd, 2009, 7:11 pm

randomdragoon wrote:Excellent points. I have to disagree about your realism argument for leveling however, as in real life you tend to get better gradually and not in noticable jumps. (And don't even try to explain away the full heal...)
Well, its an abstraction/simplification, but the basic principle of units improving (and being promoted + getting better equipment) over time is realistic enough.
"One man alone cannot fight the future"-
The X-files

"Send these foul beasts into the abyss"-Gandalf

Dave
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Dave » May 3rd, 2009, 12:00 am

randomdragoon wrote:Excellent points. I have to disagree about your realism argument for leveling however, as in real life you tend to get better gradually and not in noticable jumps. (And don't even try to explain away the full heal...)
Yes, and I've noticed that when I walk somewhere I move in a continuous motion, not in distinct "tiles".

And I saw a bishop recently and he seemed to be able to move in directions other than diagonally! It was bizarre!
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

Sangel
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Sangel » May 3rd, 2009, 2:23 am

Dave wrote:And I saw a bishop recently and he seemed to be able to move in directions other than diagonally! It was bizarre!
Are you sure that you didn't see a queen? :wink:

OK, I'm bad.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Edguy_Forever
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Joined: November 14th, 2008, 6:13 pm

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Edguy_Forever » May 3rd, 2009, 4:52 am

Well unfortunately, I often find myself one movement point short of getting into my house. And at times I have to ask my friends who ride bikes and cars and other mounts to scout ahead and find the grocery store for me.... Damn fog seems to just materialize out of nowhere.

ElvenKing
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Joined: February 7th, 2008, 7:02 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by ElvenKing » May 3rd, 2009, 7:40 am

Edguy_Forever wrote:Well unfortunately, I often find myself one movement point short of getting into my house. And at times I have to ask my friends who ride bikes and cars and other mounts to scout ahead and find the grocery store for me.... Damn fog seems to just materialize out of nowhere.
Pfft. That's nothing.

I've accidentally walked the wrong way several times and been unable to move again for several minutes.
"if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do."
Angel- Angel the Series

"Sore thumbs. Do they stick out? I mean, have you ever seen a thumb and gone 'wow, that baby is sore'?"
Willow Rosenberg- Buffy the Vampire Slayer

AThousandYoung
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by AThousandYoung » May 3rd, 2009, 9:29 am

ElvenKing wrote:
Edguy_Forever wrote:Well unfortunately, I often find myself one movement point short of getting into my house. And at times I have to ask my friends who ride bikes and cars and other mounts to scout ahead and find the grocery store for me.... Damn fog seems to just materialize out of nowhere.
Pfft. That's nothing.

I've accidentally walked the wrong way several times and been unable to move again for several minutes.
Someone hasn't learned about undo...

Darkmage
Translator
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Darkmage » May 3rd, 2009, 11:53 am

People here is so ironic, that's great, but anyway the most surprising thing is that some years ago someone died from poison, can you believe it? :augh:

ElvenKing
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by ElvenKing » May 3rd, 2009, 11:57 am

AThousandYoung wrote:
ElvenKing wrote: Pfft. That's nothing.

I've accidentally walked the wrong way several times and been unable to move again for several minutes.
Someone hasn't learned about undo...
No, I know about undo. I just forgot to check the delay shroud updates box.
"if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do."
Angel- Angel the Series

"Sore thumbs. Do they stick out? I mean, have you ever seen a thumb and gone 'wow, that baby is sore'?"
Willow Rosenberg- Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Darkmage
Translator
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Darkmage » May 3rd, 2009, 12:11 pm

I recomend you to take some gryphons or in case eagles and let them go before you, incredibly the fog dissapears...(and the eagles go whereever you like to)

ElvenKing
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Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by ElvenKing » May 3rd, 2009, 1:45 pm

Darkmage wrote:I recomend you to take some gryphons or in case eagles and let them go before you, incredibly the fog dissapears...(and the eagles go whereever you like to)
Unfortunately, I don't have enough money to buy one. I don't even have enough for a bat.

What I should do is restart my life with fog turned off; but I'm not certain that's possible.
"if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do."
Angel- Angel the Series

"Sore thumbs. Do they stick out? I mean, have you ever seen a thumb and gone 'wow, that baby is sore'?"
Willow Rosenberg- Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Edguy_Forever
Posts: 22
Joined: November 14th, 2008, 6:13 pm

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Edguy_Forever » May 3rd, 2009, 6:48 pm

Well the worst thing of all, is when I accidentally walk too close to someone I don't like. Then we have to stand next to each other for a couple hours before one of us can move again. Although I'm still allowed to punch them a couple of times if I want.

Caphriel
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Joined: April 21st, 2008, 4:10 pm

Re: Why Luck Belongs in Wesnoth...a personal experience

Post by Caphriel » May 3rd, 2009, 7:24 pm

ElvenKing wrote:
Darkmage wrote:I recomend you to take some gryphons or in case eagles and let them go before you, incredibly the fog dissapears...(and the eagles go whereever you like to)
Unfortunately, I don't have enough money to buy one. I don't even have enough for a bat.
Try conquering a couple villages and waiting for a little while.

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