A question about Necromancers...

[Dragonchampion]

Ahhh... I was woundering if anyone else reads that...

[Euthanatos93]

I think i said this before here but right and wrong are rather arbitrary and a matter of the consensus majorum which is often dictated TO and not FROM the masses. Even so, proper judgement cant only come from a more holistic perspective. Several here I am impressed have done well to depict several scenarios and perspectives of Good Necromancy.

In essence, Necromancy is simply the art of communication with he dead. As such, That powers may be used for good or evil, much as medicine (Modern or antiquitious). As it has been said, he who knows how to heal knows how to injure; to save life ; to taketh away. Necromantic knowledge is amoral because power is amoral. They say power corrupts, but that doesnt mean that power itself is evil.

Yet it is our inherent fear of death that tells us Necromancy is evil. This is an arbitrary and blind judgement. Here is a good presentation of some IRL Necromancers. It's a 6 part documentary on the Aghori. Note that his teacher spent 12 years as an aghori before moving on to another sect where his healing arts were significantly powerful because of his experience with Aghori knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0bGrvKVxac

As a side note I'd like for this not to degrade to a discussion of whether or not magic is real, if you would like you can hit me up for a game for such a discussion. I'd be more than eager.

This point is, our fears and traditions cause us to react with judgement against things which we do not understand. It is natural to fear that which we do not understand. It's a healthy disposition to be so cautious but outright rejection/damnation is rather narrow minded.

Contrary to popular belief, Immortality via unlife is NOT the ultimate goal of necromancy. It may be an individuals goal in studying/practicing necromancy but it is by no means the only nor is it even a universal motivation among necromancers.

IMHO, in theme, soulless ought to have feeding since that's exactly what zombies do. And if someone is writing a campaign about the ethics/moralityof Necromancy, it wouldn't be to much of a diversion to have a zombie epidemic that results from someone using Orcish Shyde's rationale.

Of course while one can blame Necromancy for the epidemic, one might also equally blame the specific Necromancer's incompetence at his art rather than the art itself.

This issue reminds me a lot of the Drug prohibitionist argument. It is rather only logical that drugs can't be evil. They're objects. It is rather people that do evil or irresponsible things. People speak of drugs/necromancy as if there were an intelligence within that possesed the user like a puppet. This is an absolutely irrational mass delusion spread by the ranting of an obsolete moral institution vying for absolute power and world domination. Knowing this history...many people still cannot break this arduous mind control exerted by years of torture, mental abuse and conditioning. For it yet remains the standard for moral judgement of right and wrong, good and evil when itself is obviously, and oh-so-hypocritically, the very thing it damns.

In short, just because it's the law, or lawful, doesn't mean it is good or right. Just that you've been told to believe so. I'm not sorry for being one not to take people's word for it. Certainly y arguments are not absolute. I"ll not say one thing is right nor another wrong, good or evil.

As they say, too much of a good thing is bad. Although, everything in moderation, including moderation itself. Reverence for life is a fair standard of comparative judgement but even that standard can be taken to an unhealthy excess.

I think the quantity of interest in this topic indicates our collective desire for this topic to take a presence as a wesnoth campaign. Much as in other scenarios, I'd really like to see this written with many choices and with severe consequences & benefits to each to depict the true moral ambiguity of this subject.

I'm a writer but I don't know WML yet, though I'm learning. I wouldn't mind at all writing up a choose-your-own story that reflects the quandary we've attempted to quantify as necromancy. It would certainly be a story to make you think. When I learn WML I"ll be sure to tackle this, if it hasn't already been done, as well as a few other stories I've been mulling over.

[Joram]

Several here I am impressed have done well to depict several scenarios and perspectives of Good Necromancy.

May I remind everyone again that I was never arguing that it is impossible to have a good Necromancer?

IMHO, in theme, soulless ought to have feeding since that's exactly what zombies do.

Not in Wesnoth. Therefore, to keep in theme, we must not put feeding onto the Soulless.

"Wesnoth is not..."; Remember that.

Contrary to popular belief, Immortality via unlife is NOT the ultimate goal of necromancy. It may be an individuals goal in studying/practicing necromancy but it is by no means the only nor is it even a universal motivation among necromancers.

Where? In real life? In some fantasy book over there? How do you know that Immortality is NOT the ultimate goal of necromancy in Wesnoth? In fact, I believe that there are several Wesnoth resources that specifically say that immortality is the ultimate goal of WESNOTH Necromancers. Therefore, it is.

"Wesnoth is not...":
1- The real world
2- Some fantasy book/game over there


I've noticed that people are constantly coming with information from some other fantasy series, or from the real world, and then expecting that to have some weight in an argument about Wesnoth. Well it doesn't.

Arguments about morals do, but that is because morals shouldn't change from world to world.

I think the quantity of interest in this topic indicates our collective desire for this topic to take a presence as a wesnoth campaign. Much as in other scenarios, I'd really like to see this written with many choices and with severe consequences & benefits to each to depict the true moral ambiguity of this subject.

There's a difference between a lot of people taking interest, and a lot of posts. The latter means a lot of people are interested, the latter could just mean that 2 or 3 people got sucked into an internet argument. Maybe there is high interest, maybe there isn't.

While I’ve posted a lot on the issue, I personally would rather that it wasn’t made into a campaign. It would only alienate people from each other or the game.

This issue reminds me a lot of the Drug prohibitionist argument. It is rather only logical that drugs can't be evil. They're objects. It is rather people that do evil or irresponsible things. People speak of drugs/necromancy as if there were an intelligence within that possesed the user like a puppet.

I agree about the drugs. However, Necromancy is not an object, it is a practice. So to compare the two is a fallacy. It is not possible for an object to be evil. It is possible for a practice to be evil. Some examples of practices include human sacrifice, cannibalism, torture, and so on. And we all know that some of those practices are evil (I hope?).

So to say "Drugs can't be evil because they are an object, therefore, Necromancy in moderation isn't necessarily evil" is flawed logic.

People speak of drugs/necromancy as if there were an intelligence within that possesed the user like a puppet. This is an absolutely irrational mass delusion spread by the ranting of an obsolete moral institution vying for absolute power and world domination. Knowing this history...many people still cannot break this arduous mind control exerted by years of torture, mental abuse and conditioning. For it yet remains the standard for moral judgement of right and wrong, good and evil when itself is obviously, and oh-so-hypocritically, the very thing it damns.

I think that here you are spouting nonsense, and are merely Catholic bashing.

I have never heard arguments against Necromancy speak of it as an intelligence anymore than I have heard arguments against rape speak of it as an intelligence. To say that a practice is evil is not to say that it is an intelligence. You can use an evil practice to do good things, but that doesn't make the practice good.

Yet it is our inherent fear of death that tells us Necromancy is evil. This is an arbitrary and blind judgement.

If it really were my fear of death, I would have to agree with you. But it just so happens that you are mistaken when you try to explain what goes on in other people's minds.

Spoiler:

My opposition to Necromancy in the real world has absolutely nothing irrational to it, and it is not arbitrary.

It also has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. And if you are going to say that what the Catholic Church does applies to Christianity in general, then you are being entirely illogical. It would be just the same to say that Stalin's acts show that all atheists who preach good morals are hypocritical.

#1- I believe that there is a substantial amount of evidence to indicate the truthfulness of Christianity (an entirely different subject; and one I won't get into here; just as you don't want to discuss the reality of magic here, I don't want to discuss this here)

#2- If Christianity is true, then the power of Necromancy must come either from God, angels, or demons (I actually do believe in "magic", you see )

#3- God hasn't allowed Necromancy, so therefore the power of Necromancy must come from demons, whether the practitioners know it or not.

#4- As demons are evil spirits in rebellion against God, working with them is evil.

Now, if someone were to show me some concrete evidence that Necromancy has no association with demons, then I would have to abandon point #2 (which would in turn lead to abandoning the others). Alternatively, if someone were to show me some concrete evidence that Christianity isn't true, then I would have to abandon point #1 (which would in turn lead to abandoning the others).

The above is a perfectly logical argument. There is no flaw in the logic. Now, there may be some mistake in the facts, but I'm willing to look at those (though not here; this forum doesn't exist for religious debates).

I would also like to add that much of the horrible stuff you hear about the Catholic Church has been exaggerated to the point that it is ridiculous (similar to the myth that a knight's armor prevented him from getting up if he fell down). That is not to say that the Catholic Church wasn't hypocritical for most of its history, or that they didn't do evil things. But they certainly weren't as bad as popular myth makes them.

Now, a lot of that doesn't carry over to a fantasy world. Which is why I'm not going to say that Necromancy is inherently evil in a fantasy world (again, I’m not making an irrational judgment based on centuries of mind control).

I'm going off of what information we have about WESNOTH Necromancy, and applying my morals to that. I'm not arguing about Necromancy in general, I'm arguing about WESNOTH Necromancy. You can pull up all sorts of examples of good necromancers you want, but unless they are WESNOTH Necromancers, they are irrelevant.

And as I'm not the arbiter of Wesnoth knowledge, I concede (in fact, I already have conceded, multiple times), that I may be mistaken on this point.

[Euthanatos93]

Several here I am impressed have done well to depict several scenarios and perspectives of Good Necromancy.

May I remind everyone again that I was never arguing that it is impossible to have a good Necromancer?

And I wasn't arguing against you. Although after this rather short post of yours, I am now. Particularly because you've made very poignant arguments to the effect of that which you have just here denied.

IMHO, in theme, soulless ought to have feeding since that's exactly what zombies do.

Not in Wesnoth. Therefore, to keep in theme, we must not put feeding onto the Soulless.

"Wesnoth is not..."; Remember that.

I'm sorry, I haven't read the wesnothian bible...you'll have to send me a copy. You can't rip half an idea and expect no one to reference the original concept as a form of critique. The REAL reason zombies don't have feeding is BALANCE. The themeatics and story can be arbitrarily written to fill in the holes.

Where? In real life? In some fantasy book over there? How do you know that Immortality is NOT the ultimate goal of necromancy in Wesnoth? In fact, I believe that there are several Wesnoth resources that specifically say that immortality is the ultimate goal of WESNOTH Necromancers. Therefore, it is.

"Wesnoth is not...":
1- The real world
2- Some fantasy book/game over there


I've noticed that people are constantly coming with information from some other fantasy series, or from the real world, and then expecting that to have some weight in an argument about Wesnoth. Well it doesn't.

Arguments about morals do, but that is because morals shouldn't change from world to world.

Why can't morals change from world to world? Youd don't knwo what good and evil are. You just have words to describe them and you have to apply them to unique situations with personal judgement every time. If morals are mutable within a singular world how can they NOT mutate between worlds of vary forms of existence?

Morals are in fact exactly the precipice from which I derive the argument that Immortality is not the ultimate Goal of Necromancy.

It is, in fact, one of the baser goals. It is sort of second degree of initiation to Necromancy. One Immortality is acheived, the art of Necromancy, via one's Transcendence of the barriers of time in place by mortality, takes on a new life, with new teachings and practices to be achieved.

This is not an argument constructed by reference to any other real or fictional universe. It's simply logic within the arbitrary preconceptions given.

Seeing as not a whole lot has been written within wesnoth about necromancy I believe the statement you leech from the game is an in charecter reference. Which means that it is skewed by the prejudices held by charecter speaking and is not necessarily authoritative in the wesnothian occult truths.

While I’ve posted a lot on the issue, I personally would rather that it wasn’t made into a campaign. It would only alienate people from each other or the game.

No one forces you to play the campaign if someone writes it. That's the beauty of open source philosophy. ANYONE can write content. And anyone who desires can access and play that content providing the maker distributes it.

You can't censor open source projects.

This issue reminds me a lot of the Drug prohibitionist argument. It is rather only logical that drugs can't be evil. They're objects. It is rather people that do evil or irresponsible things. People speak of drugs/necromancy as if there were an intelligence within that possesed the user like a puppet.

I agree about the drugs. However, Necromancy is not an object, it is a practice. So to compare the two is a fallacy. It is not possible for an object to be evil. It is possible for a practice to be evil. Some examples of practices include human sacrifice, cannibalism, torture, and so on. And we all know that some of those practices are evil (I hope?).

I disagree. Ritual Cannibalism is not inherently evil. You might argue that murder is evil, and thus if one's meal was obtained this way then still the murder is evil, not cannibalism.

Some people chose to be tortured. Some people enjoy this practice or are doing it to benefit themselves in some way.

As for human sacrifice, I really don't want to get into that one With someone who doesn't have a much more extensive education into antiquitous anthropology.

So to say "Drugs can't be evil because they are an object, therefore, Necromancy in moderation isn't necessarily evil" is flawed logic.

Quote the contrary it is quite applicable. Necromancy, by etymology, is an art form, like Kung fu or making tea. Drugs, and their dosing, is an art form. Malpractice or malign intent can result in death or injury. Proper use and study can create beneficial situations for the individual and the community as a whole.

That which is occulted (Hidden) is unregulated. So their is no Hypocratic oath for necromancers to take. And few troubadours extoll its virtues because few people care to listen to stories that conflict with their delicate paradigms.

I think that here you are spouting nonsense, and are merely Catholic bashing.

This Megalomanical Esoteric tradition existed long before the catholics. The Catholic church is merely one of the many institutions it has infected throughout history.

I have never heard arguments against Necromancy speak of it as an intelligence anymore than I have heard arguments against rape speak of it as an intelligence. To say that a practice is evil is not to say that it is an intelligence. You can use an evil practice to do good things, but that doesn't make the practice good.

Necromancy is an art. Rape is a practice. A practice is like a brush stroke. The rape itself is never the whole picture.

Yet it is our inherent fear of death that tells us Necromancy is evil. This is an arbitrary and blind judgement.

If it really were my fear of death, I would have to agree with you. But it just so happens that you are mistaken when you try to explain what goes on in other people's minds.

It might seem like I'm mistaken but I assure you I'm not. You'll have to take my words for it (Or not, tbh idc) because I really don't feel like a religious debate or getting to know you well enough to remove the shroud from your mind.

It also has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. And if you are going to say that what the Catholic Church does applies to Christianity in general, then you are being entirely illogical. It would be just the same to say that Stalin's acts show that all atheists who preach good morals are hypocritical.

I never mentioned the catholic church. You did. However, as you make it relevant I'll be candid enough to admit I'm not familiar personally with the catholic church's work. I am however familiar with many different protestant denominations and with many different non-denominational communities.

It's the same guilt trip mindfuck so some insecure wad can alleviate the religious fears taught to him by enacting them upon others. It is a human process that occurs everywhere and within ALL religions.

I would also like to add that much of the horrible stuff you hear about the Catholic Church has been exaggerated to the point that it is ridiculous (similar to the myth that a knight's armor prevented him from getting up if he fell down). That is not to say that the Catholic Church wasn't hypocritical for most of its history, or that they didn't do evil things. But they certainly weren't as bad as popular myth makes them.

You haven't studied much of the history on it have you?

Now, a lot of that doesn't carry over to a fantasy world. Which is why I'm not going to say that Necromancy is inherently evil in a fantasy world (again, I’m not making an irrational judgment based on centuries of mind control).

Good, because a lot of that doesn't carry over to the REAL world either. The fact that you assert your mind is not being controlled is evidence that it may well indeed be so. For one may only be sure when one unsure enough to analyze the influence upon ones own mind critically. We live a relative existence and therefore nothing we do is ever an independent decision. One must acknowledge that one is a perpetual subject of mind control to become free of the invisible chains we may or may not have been conned into.

Of course...only so much paranoia is healthy...learning where to draw the line is a tedious judgement.

I'm going off of what information we have about WESNOTH Necromancy, and applying my morals to that. I'm not arguing about Necromancy in general, I'm arguing about WESNOTH Necromancy. You can pull up all sorts of examples of good necromancers you want, but unless they are WESNOTH Necromancers, they are irrelevant.

And as I'm not the arbiter of Wesnoth knowledge, I concede (in fact, I already have conceded, multiple times), that I may be mistaken on this point.

I'm glad you recognise they are YOUR morals. The reason there are so many outside references being made is because of the limited availability of wesnothian references.

Furthermore, as is human nature, Until a necromancer flourishes in rule and without predjudice this cannot be seen as a fair argument. I believe TRoW indicates that there were some good necromancers. That indeed some of them were spoilt by the lust for power. This lust is is own 'evil' and not at all inherent to necromancy. Our Wesfolk Lady made many assertations of the good things the Necromancers who lead her people did.

It is as of yet an untold part of Wesnoth history.

[thespaceinvader]

You can't censor open source projects.

True. We can and do, however, control what is allowed on the website, forums and add-on server. It would be worth everyone involved in this discussion bearing that in mind when discussing potentially flame-war-raising topics...

[Joram]

Wow. You and I differ on too many levels to make any conversation productive.

Sorry for assuming you were talking about the Catholic Church. It seemed a natural conclusion because I've heard lots of people say very similar things about it.

Oh, and by the way. I have looked into the history of the Catholic Church.

[Euthanatos93]

Yes too many people are quick to blame the institutions for the evils of individuals and conspirators. It's no secret the catholic church was created for the purpose of World Domination. Constantine said as much. Yet in the end such evils always occur to show how artfully good inevitably comes from such things. Using a good philosophy to do evil things doesn't change the quality of the philosophy. It merely challenges the individuals to have more hope to overcome such things.

Similarily the art of necromancy has become blamed for the evils of individuals caught in lust for power and greed. Essentially a good necromancy would have a respect for the dead. I've brought up outside sources on the issue of necromancy not to say that wesnoth should be similar to these but as a reference for the lost art of the Good Necromancer. Ghost Whisperer (A tv show about a woman who talks to dead people) is an excellent such reference. The Necroscope as well for these issues debated here about torturing dead souls and animating dead flesh and bones is dealt with in moral detail. The protagonist, Koegh, is a great example of a good necromancer.

These people have a pattern, talking to the dead to find out what troubles them and traps their spirit in this world. THen they work with the spirits to help them move on and find peace. OFten to the benefit of those who still live. RIghting almost lost wrongs and disposing of villanous Necromancers and other such evil-doers, even sometimes through correcting simple misunderstandings.

The Evil Necromancer Takes those self-tortured, confused, angry souls and fosters their hatred with threats against their loved ones, false promises of assistance and even lying directly about the power he hold over the spirits. ALl to coerce them to assist his singular self-centered goals.

This is the root of all evil, individuals Seeking their own goals at the expense of others. Naturally it can become a fine line and even an ambiguous one. BUt the heart of a man is the true source of good or evil not the tools or the craft he employs.

[Araja]

I'm of the belief that Necromancy, just like any other weapon, is only as bad as the person who uses it.
Whilst entrapping souls is undeniably evil, raising the corpses of the dead with (basically) Artificial Intelligence is no worse then creating a killer robot.

In some games like Spellforce: Order of Dawn, then Necromancy is just another character skill,to be used against the forces of evil.
So in a nutshell, my view is "Necromancy is perfectly fine, as long as you don't use souls"

[Velensk]

As has been mentioned before in this thread. Many do not think it is necromancy unless it uses spirits.

[Araja]

Mmmmmno...

Just filling some corpse with dark magic to make it shamble around is Necromancy, crude and low-level, but still.