Armor

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AThousandYoung
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Armor

Post by AThousandYoung » March 5th, 2009, 10:39 am

I'm fascinated by how armor is modelled in this game. It seems to add to resistances.

Units with 0 armor are in leather it seems. Unarmored folks have negative resistance to weapons.

Units with 20 vs slash and bludgeon are in chain. Chain can be penetrated by piercing.

Units with 50 vs slash and 40 vs pierce and 10 vs bludgeon are in plate.

OK, that all makes sense to me...

But wtf is the Pikeman wearing?! 40% vs Piercing and nothing else?!

AI
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Re: Armor

Post by AI » March 5th, 2009, 11:07 am

It's a case of gameplay > realism.

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Ken_Oh
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Re: Armor

Post by Ken_Oh » March 5th, 2009, 11:15 am

You can't really say that x piece of armor gives y resistance. Sometimes it's supposed to contribute to hp, since, for example, look at the leather-clad Elvish Archer vs. the heavily armored Elvish Avenger.

Still, I've tried to make some standard for armor for my RPG era.

Like, you said, unarmored gives -30 blade, -20 impact/pierce.

Leather or robe gives 0s.

I don't know where you are getting the chain thing from, with -10% to pierce. Units on horseback have -20% to pierce, but that isn't a function of their armor but rather because they are on horseback.

I made a tempered plate to reflect what kind of armor the spearman upgrades wear, but I think it's probably more accurate to say that a pike's reach has more to do with its pierce resistance than armor is. Or not, who knows. And, like AI said, it's a gameplay choice.

AThousandYoung
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Re: Armor

Post by AThousandYoung » March 5th, 2009, 9:32 pm

AI wrote:It's a case of gameplay > realism.
Why is it sooo critical to gameplay that Pikemen have 40% Pierce resistance and nothing else?! That answer comes up every time anyone asks about the logic behind something in a game. Without explanation it's simply a meaningless dismissal of what I said for no reason that I can see.

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Turuk
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Re: Armor

Post by Turuk » March 5th, 2009, 9:35 pm

AThousandYoung wrote:Why is it sooo critical to gameplay that Pikemen have 40% Pierce resistance and nothing else?! That answer comes up every time anyone asks about the logic behind something in a game. Without explanation it's simply a meaningless dismissal of what I said for no reason that I can see.
It's not a meaningless dismissal. In the interest of balance of the loyalist faction, it was decided that the Pikeman needed to have only 40% resistance to pierce, even if that came at a cost of realism. So gameplay>realism. You think that people are saying it out of hand without wanting to explain something, but in Wesnoth, that is the explanation, as measures are taken related to gameplay first.
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AThousandYoung
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Re: Armor

Post by AThousandYoung » March 5th, 2009, 9:38 pm

Ken_Oh wrote:You can't really say that x piece of armor gives y resistance. Sometimes it's supposed to contribute to hp, since, for example, look at the leather-clad Elvish Archer vs. the heavily armored Elvish Avenger.

Still, I've tried to make some standard for armor for my RPG era.

Like, you said, unarmored gives -30 blade, -20 impact/pierce.

Leather or robe gives 0s.

I don't know where you are getting the chain thing from, with -10% to pierce. Units on horseback have -20% to pierce, but that isn't a function of their armor but rather because they are on horseback.

I made a tempered plate to reflect what kind of armor the spearman upgrades wear, but I think it's probably more accurate to say that a pike's reach has more to do with its pierce resistance than armor is. Or not, who knows. And, like AI said, it's a gameplay choice.
Why do you think the Avenger is heavily armored? And I never said Chain was -10% to Pierce. I'm talking about units like Swordsmen with their 20% to Impact and Slash but 0% to Pierce.

I see very logical patterns with the resistances that fall into a few categories; unarmored (-20% and 30%), leather(0%), chain (20% impact and slash), plate (50% slash, 40% pierce, 10% impact, cannot go on mountains). Horsemen take a -20% Pierce for being horsemen which is reasonable...crossbows and pikes have always been the bane of cavalry.

Pikemen are the only ones who make no sense whatsoever. I think the "gameplay > realism" argument is silly without more detailed explanation.

AThousandYoung
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Re: Armor

Post by AThousandYoung » March 5th, 2009, 9:40 pm

Turuk wrote:
AThousandYoung wrote:Why is it sooo critical to gameplay that Pikemen have 40% Pierce resistance and nothing else?! That answer comes up every time anyone asks about the logic behind something in a game. Without explanation it's simply a meaningless dismissal of what I said for no reason that I can see.
It's not a meaningless dismissal. In the interest of balance of the loyalist faction, it was decided that the Pikeman needed to have only 40% resistance to pierce, even if that came at a cost of realism. So gameplay>realism. You think that people are saying it out of hand without wanting to explain something, but in Wesnoth, that is the explanation, as measures are taken related to gameplay first.
It is a meaningless dismissal WITHOUT EXPLANATION. What was the balance problem?

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Turuk
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Re: Armor

Post by Turuk » March 5th, 2009, 9:48 pm

AThousandYoung wrote:It is a meaningless dismissal WITHOUT EXPLANATION. What was the balance problem?
Unlike many other game forums, this is a very civil place and we want it to stay like that. Be kind and you will experience a very helpful and friendly community. Be not so kind and you will quickly face a lot of sarcasm and rejection.

Beyond that, try to do some searching and you will find the answer for yourself. It exists on these forums.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 57#p197257
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thespaceinvader
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Re: Armor

Post by thespaceinvader » March 5th, 2009, 9:49 pm

Basically, making pikemen's resistances to blade and impact better would have led to them being overpowered, so their resistances are less. That's the sum total of balancing.

Give it whatever fluff you desire, it's a decision made primarily for balance reasons. IN exactly the same way that the Spearman has no resistances despite being clad in quite a lot of metal plate and having a shield, whilst the thug has the same resistances despite only having a leather jerkin, and the peasant, who has neither. Similarly, the entirely unarmoured Ulfserker has the same resistances as the not-very-armoured Thunderer, the slightly-better-armoured Fighter, and the well-armoured Guardsman.

Resistances are not the only way of saying what armour a unit is wearing, nor is there any set definition of what sort of armour gives what resistances - it varies depending on game balance. You're welcome to make an armour item which affects resistances in whatever way you desire for your campaign.
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TL
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Re: Armor

Post by TL » March 5th, 2009, 9:55 pm

How do you arrive at "chain=20% blade and impact"? These resists show up on the swordsman and the royal guardsman only. Out of 2 unit sprites and 2 unit portraits, only the swordsman portrait is shown with chainmail; both sprites and the royal guard portrait show full plate. Meanwhile, other units that are depicted in chainmail do not follow this pattern.

There is little to no connection between the armor Wesnoth's units are shown in and their resistances. Nor is there really that much logic behind resistances in general; observe that the fencer and other elusivefoots, some of which are shown wearing armor, have worse resistances than a guy in a bathrobe or a nearly nekkid elf chick. If you're looking for realism or even strict consistency, this is the wrong game. Hell, this is probably the wrong hobby.

Giving the pikeman 40% pierce resistance compared to the similarly-outfitted swordsman's 20% blade and pierce arbitrarily differentiates the two lines while keeping them relatively equal. Among other things, it ensures that the pike is the ultimate charge-breaker unit.

AThousandYoung
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Re: Armor

Post by AThousandYoung » March 5th, 2009, 9:59 pm

Turuk wrote:
AThousandYoung wrote:It is a meaningless dismissal WITHOUT EXPLANATION. What was the balance problem?
Unlike many other game forums, this is a very civil place and we want it to stay like that. Be kind and you will experience a very helpful and friendly community. Be not so kind and you will quickly face a lot of sarcasm and rejection.

Beyond that, try to do some searching and you will find the answer for yourself. It exists on these forums.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 57#p197257
I did a search acually. I searched for "pikemen armor". I'll look at your link. Thanks!

Noy
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Re: Armor

Post by Noy » March 5th, 2009, 10:07 pm

This is going to be a short post for now.

First off AThousandYoung, fix your posting with quotes. It's distracting to look at and shows a fundamental disregard for basic communication standards. If you want to be taken seriously, that's the place to start.

As for your question, it is a question of gameplay over realism. The original statistics we recieved in 2005, when the mp devs were created, did not have a strong underlying thematic system that linked realism with stats. More often than not, HP was conflated with resistances. This was realized early on, but we were more concerned with balance at the time to correct this. About a year ago Zookeeper and myself studied the feasibility of trying to correct this problem, partly at the behest of another developer, becephalus. After several days of work we concluded that bringing resistances and HP into line, using a base race hp, was nearly impossible without having a serious detrimental impact on the overall balance. There were a number of different issues, like scaling of percentages, which made the idea problematic, if not unworkable completely. As a result, we decided to keep this system, which is gameplay centered over a more realistic one which would be unbalanced if implemented, and require years of effort to make workable.

There is your answer.
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zookeeper
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Re: Armor

Post by zookeeper » March 5th, 2009, 10:08 pm

Changes in how armour units seem to be wearing generally affects resistances cannot be changed at this point without radically messing up the balance for a long time, so it most likely won't be done. It has come up before, and the people who'd do it are well aware of it.

If we'd be designing the game from scratch today, then yes, maybe it'd make sense to try to have armour or lack of it affect resistances in an uniform manner, but at this point it can't be done without destroying the fine existing balance. It's just how it happens to be and it's not rejected because it would be a bad idea to have resistances to work like that, but because no one who would potentially have the skills to implement that would do it.

palloco
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Re: Armor

Post by palloco » March 5th, 2009, 11:20 pm

Pikemen armour has spikes/deflectors that decrease the speed and change the penetration angle of incoming arrows/pikes. This kind of protection is useless against attacks where a weapon is applied over a zone of the armour for a prolonged time, such as would happens with swords or maces.

AThousandYoung
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Re: Armor

Post by AThousandYoung » March 6th, 2009, 3:52 am

Thank you for your replies. I don't know how to fix the quotes.

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