"Elves are not warlike by nature..." rant (spoilers)

[Akkarin345]

I think the problem is that we don't see concrete evidence of it anyway. Maybe if a campaign was made and the Elves refuse to go to war due to their peacful nature this would help. Then you would have to get it mainline etc. At the moment it does look the opposite of the description but i assume most of the people don't look too hard into the background of the Elves. So maybe we should make a campaign about their neutrality?

[Jozrael]

Why are there all these Asheviere fanboys all of a sudden :\

[Orcish Shyde]

Why are there all these Asheviere fanboys all of a sudden :\

You mean I'm not the only one?

[LemonTea]

You mean I'm not the only one?

*puts on glasses*

oh sorry I was just seeing double

[The1exile]

Damn. I've become pretty convinced by this argument (at least that Ashiviere isn't all that bad). Good show

[Jozrael]

Damn. I've become pretty convinced by this argument (at least that Ashiviere isn't all that bad). Good show

Baaaaaa.

[Akkarin345]

Damn. I've become pretty convinced by this argument (at least that Ashiviere isn't all that bad). Good show

A villain can be bad and you can still like them you know.
If you look at the new Tomb Raider games although a character, Amanda, in that is against the main heroine i still like her even if she is bad.

A lot of the time the player has to accept that the narrator and the heroes are telling the truth.

[The1exile]

Baaaaaa.

Either you're a sheep, a sheep impersonator, or using an ad hom to try and reinforce your point about "Ashiviere fanboys"

In any case, you lose.

[Orcish Shyde]

@Akkarin
The problem is, HTTT tells us that Asheviere is evil but never shows us that Asheviere is evil. Her minions try to kill you ruthlessly, but that's entirely justified as your goal is to kill her ruthlessly. We never see her doing any specific evil deeds, and we don't know the whole story behind the mermen's enslavement - the one and only crime which is confirmed to be committed by Asheviere's goons, whether or not she ordered it or even approves of it. Therefore, by the same 'court of law' logic used against my argument that HTTT is told by a lying narrator, Asheviere must be presumed not guilty of all crimes, because we never see any evidence to connect her to them - or even evidence that she'd stoop to them if pushed.

[Akkarin345]

Well then i could say that the people of the Northorn Doors were treated failrly they just fanceid killing a few orcs.
A lot of lichs never practiced necromancy as you never saw them physically do it.

You can say that about a lot of things, in stories the reader is positioned to be on the same side as the narrator and therefore assumes they are telling the truth, why wouldn't they?

[LemonTea]

Ah, those who read with the text vs. those who read against the text, round one.

Perhaps this would help solve the problem.

[Orcish Shyde]

Well then i could say that the people of the Northorn Doors were treated failrly they just fanceid killing a few orcs.

You do, however, see Malifor trying to kill them horribly; Rakshas trying to invade Knalga; Rakshas stealing the gold recovered from Malifor; etc. Also, the orcs in "Breaking the Chains" refer explicitly to Tallin's rebel mob as slaves.

A lot of lichs never practiced necromancy as you never saw them physically do it.

We physically see them do it every time they recruit any undead unit.

You can say that about a lot of things, in stories the reader is positioned to be on the same side as the narrator and therefore assumes they are telling the truth, why wouldn't they?

They wouldn't be willing to perfectly tell the exact truth because of these guys LemonTea was talking about. Revolutions like Konrad's have a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong track record of executing people who speak out against them.

[Akkarin345]

I doubt the rebels silenced people against them. I might be wrong about this, not played HttT for a while, but Konrad forgave the Knights. They just removed a unjust queen. ( I am going to have to go through the campaign and find some quotes)

[turin]

They just removed a unjust queen.

This is the entire point - unjust how? The only evidence for it is that the narrator claims it is so.

But we already know the narrator in the service of Delfador, not the other way around. Proof? Look at the last two slides in the introduction:

Soon after news of Asheviere's orders reached Delfador, he secretly entered the palace and stole away Konrad, the youngest of Garard's nephews, thereby saving him from death.

Fleeing to the Aethenwood beyond the south-western border of Wesnoth, Delfador raised the child Konrad under the protection of the Elves, watching sadly as Asheviere's reign of terror over the land began...

This is a lie. A straight-up, indisputable falsehood. The real Konrad died; the Konrad in the campaign is an impostor, just some peasant child Delfador found in a field, as is revealed at the end of the campaign. If the narrator reports otherwise, it means he is either biased towards Delfador, or just ignorant. In either case, it means the narrator is unreliable. Thus the only evidence for Asheviere's evilness is discredited.

We have no choice but to treat the statements of the narrator as just that - statements made by someone either lacking knowledge, or intentionally helping Delfador. (I actually believe the narrator may be Delfador - he certainly in in the introduction to the final scenario, and he may have been talking about himself in the third person in the other parts.)

[LemonTea]

I think the previous page is VERY um, elf-related

(the return of the HttT Story thread)