Luck rant [split from Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale]

[Tomsik]

Awesome.

[A Guy]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Fosprey]

i love this luck threads.
Anywya this guy lost all my respect when he said "ai have better luck" What crap..
I hate when some devs point out that that non luck mods fails, and that means people want more luck (i want to give more of an explanation of why they fail, but it will be very long)
And of course most people around will defend the rng system , why? BECAUSE THEY ARE AROUND, i mean, if they hate the rng, they just leave, so they aren't around anymore, i have seen many people left because of it. In fact i would, if it weren't because i'm on my slow progressing project i would have left quite time ago.
Anyway, i don't see why people keep complaining , it's been settled devs won't change the system, the reason is simple, every very good case that can be made about rng beeing bad, Devs are just not interested. For what devs care, the rng make the game play out perfectly as they wish.
it's like telling someone to not put much suger on their coffe because it lose their bitternes, and you like it bitter. But the other person is putting suggar BECAUSE THEY WANT THE COFFE LOSE IT's BITTERNES!

[SkeleRanger]

i love this luck threads.
Anywya this guy lost all my respect when he said "ai have better luck" What crap..
I hate when some devs point out that that non luck mods fails, and that means people want more luck (i want to give more of an explanation of why they fail, but it will be very long)
And of course most people around will defend the rng system , why? BECAUSE THEY ARE AROUND, i mean, if they hate the rng, they just leave, so they aren't around anymore, i have seen many people left because of it. In fact i would, if it weren't because i'm on my slow progressing project i would have left quite time ago.
Anyway, i don't see why people keep complaining , it's been settled devs won't change the system, the reason is simple, every very good case that can be made about rng beeing bad, Devs are just not interested. For what devs care, the rng make the game play out perfectly as they wish.
it's like telling someone to not put much suger on their coffe because it lose their bitternes, and you like it bitter. But the other person is putting suggar BECAUSE THEY WANT THE COFFE LOSE IT's BITTERNES!

What?

[MDG]

Fosprey's comments

What?

Made sense to me. Which parts didn't you understand?

[Velensk]

He is saying that the people who stick around to play wesnoth, are the ones who like it the way that it is, therefore will defend the way that it is.

However, he indicates that most people would prefer it to be a diffrent way, however since they don't think it's going to change, they simply leave, except when one of them comes here to try to get it changed, and gets rallied against by all the people who do like it the way he says.

EDIT: I admit to speaking a bit further than what he said.

[Fosprey]

no velensk, never said that MOST people like it the other way.
In fact i'm pretty sure MOST people like the RNG thing. I just say that the amount of people that don't like the RNG is bigger that what can be figured based on forum and lobby discussion.
I think that if we run a poll about how many people want the rng be removed. It will end something like 90-10 or better, in favor of the RNG. (the most likely reason to get a worst results is that rng haters would be more prone to vote, while rng lovers just aren't that much interested in this kind of arguments, but for the sake of the argument let's assume everybody would vote.)
If we could somehow make that poll to every hardcore TBS player, i think it would end something like 60-40 in favor of the rng.
Did i make my point clear?

[Noy]

If we could somehow make that poll to every hardcore TBS player, i think it would end something like 60-40 in favor of the rng.
Did i make my point clear?

Yeah, and you're probably wrong. If you had a poll for "Hard Core" TBS players, you would probably get overwhelming approval, since I and other players can't come up with any examples of tactical or strategic war games without a random element to determine combat. One person familiar with the entire genre, noted that in many games (particularly tabletop versions) the use of RNG for resolution is far more blunt, consisting of a single Six Sided Die. Its a staple of this type of game, and wesnoth's use of it is really not exceptional in any way.

[Dave]

If we could somehow make that poll to every hardcore TBS player, i think it would end something like 60-40 in favor of the rng.
Did i make my point clear?

Yeah, and you're probably wrong. If you had a poll for "Hard Core" TBS players, you would probably get overwhelming approval, since I and other players can't come up with any examples of tactical or strategic war games without a random element to determine combat. One person familiar with the entire genre, noted that in many games (particularly tabletop versions) the use of RNG for resolution is far more blunt, consisting of a single Six Sided Die. Its a staple of this type of game, and wesnoth's use of it is really not exceptional in any way.

This is completely true. One thing I find a little surprising about the number of RNG complaints is exactly this: Wesnoth is a game most reminiscent of the tabletop wargame tradition, and most every game in that genre uses chance heavily, often much more so than Wesnoth.

I do have a little theory about this: I think that for many people, there is something psychologically unnerving about having chance determined by the computer. People can hold dice in their hands; they can kiss them; they can make an especially hard throw of them for a crucial roll. None of it effects the results, but there is something very psychologically satisfying about doing these things for some people.

These same people will tend to show disdain and distrust for the chance element being decided electronically. Even though pseudo-random number algorithms used in Wesnoth are so good that no human could possibly distinguish the results from a series of dice rolls, something about not understanding how the chances are calculated breeds a certain sense of distrust. A feeling that the game is "rigged against them". This is shown rather obviously with the number of players who claim that the AI is actually favored by the RNG, something which is patently untrue.

David

[Fosprey]

yeah...i don't remember throwing dices last week when i was playing chess, nor the the times i played Go, maybe i was missing something in the rules. just to name the two most popular TBS games in the history.
Do you want me to name the LONG list of TBS game that don't use any random generated number? i have several in my mind right now. And i'm sure the non-rng TBS are FAR more played in competitive scenes than RNG TBS games. Do you want to show you all the evidence of this? i REALLY have to?

Do aslo i have to point out that right now The amount of games that are based non Random generated Far outclass in number and popularity, the games based on random ganerated numbers at competitive level? Of course you can tell me starcraft have luck because there is a RNG wich is when a unit attacks a higher level unit, a situation so infrecuent, that affects very little.
The only games with a strong RNG element that are vastly played in comeptitive scenes are because THEY ARE GAMBLING GAMES (poker, backgammon) and so they force to put money in it. Competitive players are almost forced to learn them to get the money from the unwise. TCG games work EXACTLY like this.

it's true that a lot of wargames, and computer strategy games that are tactical and strategical have a strong RNG on it. Now you may wonder why Most of them FAIL MISERABLE to build even a decent competitive scene.
If you want to find some sucess i suggest taking on RISK, this is by far your best bet. but it's not even close to have a strong competitive scene as the non-rng games that are considered mainstream in the competitives scenes of every genere you can think off.

[Dave]

yeah...i don't remember throwing dices last week when i was playing chess, nor the the times i played Go, maybe i was missing something in the rules. just to name the two most popular TBS games in the history.
Do you want me to name the LONG list of TBS game that don't use any random generated number? i have several in my mind right now. And i'm sure the non-rng TBS are FAR more played in competitive scenes than RNG TBS games. Do you want to show you all the evidence of this? i REALLY have to?

Though Chess or Go are technically "TBS" games, that is not what is generally meant by the term, nor is it what Noy and I are referring to.

TBS games are generally computer games which take most of their inspiration from "wargames". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_based_strategy for a good discussion of what the term "TBS" generally means, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargaming for what wargaming is all about.

Note in particular the line, "Highly stylized conflict games such as chess are not generally considered wargames".

David

[Fosprey]

ok, i get your point.
But i was refering to the term tbs as that , games of strategy that are turn based opposed to be played in real time (or simultaneous, and chess and go are games of strategy, that are turn based). And when i was refering to Hardcore players of tbs, i mean players that play games for life in a competitive environment.

And i'm sure that if we make a poll to that kind of players, it would still be in favor of the RNG, but something like 60-40.
Of course if you make the poll involving players of wargames , it will be something like 99-1. I mean, wargames have all a great component of luck. But as i say , they consistently fail miserably at establishing a solid competitive environment. Risk being the major contender (still if you can consider risk a wargame, since it's a lot less complex than most wargames), and it's simplicity is the reason for it.

I want you to remember that i'm not against random generated numbers in games. In fact i don't understand how anyone complain about it, that plays on single player games. I'm just against random generated numbres in competitive gaming. And as i already noted, this is not the main focus of wesnoth. So understand why you think rng is ok, and i understand that you want wesnoth to be that a wargame, and what kind of wargame would it be without a strong RNG?

But if wesnoth would deviate from a wargame and , between other things, it's rng impact is reduced, i think it would be hable to build a solid growing competitive environment.

I hope i can show that in the following two-three years to come, that's the time i plan to have my mod finished, and i will be ready to promote it.

[Turuk]

So your mod will reduce the impact of the RNG, and therefore with a game that is much easier for the player to determine who the winner is, this will build a stable and growing competitive environment.

So basically, the less realistic the game is, the more people will enjoy it. A definition of a wargame is something that "all such games must explore and illuminate or simulate some feature or aspect of human behaviour directly bearing on the conduct of war." Human behavior, as far as I know, is incredibly driven by so many various facets and details and is indeed unpredictable.

People don't always hit their target, they get tired and make mistakes, or the enemy gets lucky and manages to get you before you get him. It's not fair, and yes, sometimes in combat the side with the better strategy, men, and equipment.... can still lose. That's life.

From someone who has been there, I think that Wesnoth's RNG does a pretty good job of representing what could possible happen. You might win, you might lose your attack, a unit lives when you thought it wouldn't or one of your best units is overcome and dies. You have to adjust your strategy on the go, be flexible, and try to accommodate the variables that keep popping up. That's what I love most about the game is that I feel it relates better than a great many other games out there.

I understand that yeah, some people don't want that. They want it clear cut, easy to tell who can win or lose, less based on luck and more based on user control and the facts and numbers of which unit is stronger. But that is not what Wesnoth is trying to be, or what the people who play it are looking for, so instead of trying to change a game that so many people have worked on into your sole image, why not make your own original idea? You obviously have thought this out, and have felt out the field in order to get an idea of what other players are looking for, so why not capitalize on that trend?

[Fosprey]

Because making a NEW original idea, will cost Too much resources, i'm not able to afford it. This mod will be expensive enough to me. and take quite a time. Adidtionaly why not take advantage of this game graphics? i think the game graphics are top. i don't know technically, but i don't remember a strategy game more nice in terms of graphics than this one, at least that's my taste.
Plus why not use the engine?.
I also want to create a turn based strategy game with incomplete information that is good in a competitive environment. There are excellent competitieve game in every genere. TCG (watch out for Yomi the game of david sirlin, i;m a beta tester and this game will be a nice competitive TCG game), Fighting games (SSF2T, Tekken,ssbm), Complete information TBS game (Chess, go), RTS, (starcraft, Dota,warcraft), FPS (Counterstrike, quake), Omg even pump it up have a stronger competitive scene than any incomplete information TBS i can think off. , race (Need for speed) , soccer (fifa)
The three TBS of incomplete information that came closer to put on a strong competitive scene were Heroes 3 and free civ (the excesive amount of time need to finish those games, killed their hopes), RISK, have something remotly close to it, but just don't (don't name warhammer, the competitve scene of warhammer is a joke)
I like TBS of incomplete information for several reasons. And like competion, so i wish to make one, using wesnoth resources as a base.

[JW]

most people would prefer it to be a diffrent way, however since they don't think it's going to change, they simply leave, except when one of them comes here to try to get it changed, and gets rallied against by all the people who do like it the way he says.

^ = me.

More from me later.