Hornshark Island

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Charmed
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Hornshark Island

Post by Charmed » August 28th, 2008, 2:14 am

I'm a new player to the game and it seems as though Hornshark Island is an unbalanced map for some factions. The only way I can figure out how to get all my side's villages when using Rebels for example, within 3 turns is to use 2 Scouts. All other maps I've looked at so far (Den of Onis, Caves of the Basilisk, Fallenstar Lake, etc.) can get to all the side's villages with just one Scout.

It is much easier for most other factions.
- undead have bats and ghosts
- northerners have nagas and wolf riders
- knalga has gryphons and footpads
- drakes have gliders and fighters (although it could be somewhat difficult for drakes too since other than glider all their other units base move is 6 or less, and you really don't want more than one glider)

Other examples:
1. The water village for 1 is 13 spaces away, but 11 spaces away for 2
2. The other water village is 7 spaces away for 1, but 6 spaces away for 2
3. The two side villages are closer to player 2's second keep

Has anyone else noticed this?

Charmed

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A Guy
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by A Guy » August 28th, 2008, 2:35 am

The villages being further away for 1 are intentional, as 1 getting to move first is a major advantage.
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Secret_Squirrel
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by Secret_Squirrel » August 28th, 2008, 4:30 am

I think there is a case to be made here. Largely the disadvantage is factional more then anything. First, if there is a "major" advantage to the first player then it ought to be reflected in other maps. If all the maps are balanced either many of the other maps are not which have the same or more nearly the same relative village position.

I think Rebels have the largest disadvantage on this map as player 1. The water village at 7,3 is 13 spaces away. The only way to be guaranteed to take this village on turn 2 turn is with a scout. The water village at 16,8 is 7 spaces away, the ONLY way to get this village on turn 2 for rebels is to get either a quick merman or scout. The village at 13,4 is 7 spaces away, which requires either yet another scout, or a quick archer.

Then there the other 2 villages supposedly player 1's. One at 19,13 (10 spaces away), the other 22,14 is 13 spaces away, and this is assuming the closest space and obviously you can't recruit multiples on the same space.

In order to appreciate this we must look at the perspective of player 2. The corresponding villages are 11,5, 5, 8,8 spaces away. Thats a HUGE difference, and wait, thats not all!

Consider also theres one village the leader can take on the first turn. However if P1 takes the village he/she canNOT reach the other keep next turn. The converse is NOT true for P2. A speed 6 leader for P2 can reach the village AND then reach the keep next turn.

So all is said and done, P1 has serious issues grabbing villages. P1 simply cannot grab villages as quick as P2. A rebel P2, for example, could easily have 5 villages by turn 2 and 6 on turn 3, guaranteed. In addition P2 on turn 2 is recruiting from the other keep and can threaten P1's outlier villages when P1 has only whatever initial recruits to take them, assuming they are fast enough to be in range (pretty much scouts)

In fact the more I look at it, I don't see how you can possibly deny that P2 has a rather sizable advantage over P1 on this map as is.

Some of these things are alleviated by other factions, for instance the northerner naga is base speed 7, undead have bats, drakes have gliders (though they are somewhat limited because the most distant villages require either gliders or quick fighters, which again is luck that P2 doesn't need), knalga has gryphons and footpads. Still, if there are definite disadvantages to certain factions then P1 cannot realistically play random while P2 can, which is still a disadvantage. Plus bear in mind those other factions are forced to buy certain units that are not always that desirable for this map, so they have to choose between getting units they want or accepting taking the villages with what they must.

Thoughts?

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anakayub
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by anakayub » August 28th, 2008, 8:56 am

Secret_Squirrel wrote:Thoughts?
No 1 rule when claiming a map imbalance: Post a replay.
Take a breath.

Secret_Squirrel
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by Secret_Squirrel » August 28th, 2008, 12:46 pm

2p_-_Hornshark_Island_replay_v._2.gz

This is based on P1 doing the best I think it can to get villages in the first 3 turns. Notice it requires 3 scouts (or else one would have to depend on getting quick units). At the end of turn 4 P1 has 7 units, all its villages, 118 gold of units with 1 gold left. Conversely at the beginning of turn 4 P2 has 7 units, 113 gold of units and 18 gold left, so already by turn 4 just after grabbing villages P2 has a 12 gold advantage. In this particular situation by the end of turn 4 P1 has 6 units P2 has 8 (with 1 gold left) and P1 is in a pretty [censored] situation.

Of course there are other ways to do things but ultimately P1 is going to be at a gold disadvantage and to be in a better situation depends on luck.

Does that help?

PingPangQui
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by PingPangQui » September 4th, 2008, 8:21 am

I took some sparetime to watched the first three turns (after that your replay seems to be broken for some reason).

:eng: First of all BfW is a turnbased game. It might be obvious, but it is very important to remember this when talking about game balance. So what does this mean?
The first turn of player one is not equal to the first turn of player two, since they can't move at the same time. Thus one could alternativly count turns in the following manner.

turn 1: player one moves
turn 2: player two moves
turn 3: player one moves
etc.

Therefore claiming player two has an advantage at his turn is the same as saying player one has an advanatge at his turn. This makes no sense.

Now lets have a look at the income and villages regarding the players of the replay you've provided (numbers represent the situation at the end of each turn, thus income represents the money the player would get at thier next turn).

Code: Select all

|turn | player 1          |  player 2         |
|     | income | villages | income | villages |
| 1   | -2     | 0        |        |          |
| 2   |        |          | 1      | 1        |
| 3   | 3      | 2        |        |          |
| 4   |        |          | 5      | 5        |
| 5   | 18     | 8        |        |          |
| 6   |        |          | 16     | 7        |
As you can see player one has only an economic disadvantage at the end of turn 1. In all other cases the player who's turn it is to move has the advantage.
Btw. the disadvantage of player one after turn 1 could be less if you had recruited only 3 units (one scout less) initally.

Thus at the bottom line player one has no economic disadvantage since he moves first.
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anakayub
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by anakayub » September 4th, 2008, 9:48 am

PingPangQui wrote:I took some sparetime to watched the first three turns (after that your replay seems to be broken for some reason).
Which is why I didn't give a comment, and is still waiting for Doc's input.
Take a breath.

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leocrotta
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by leocrotta » September 6th, 2008, 8:03 am

[Taking away the answering work from Doc today]

I played a match vs Secret_Squirrel as elf(p1) vs his orcs(p2) after I won pretty easily in the same match-up as p2-orc.
During the matches I felt there is some truth in his statements although my elves might not be the perfect ones to say p1 has a disadvantage.
There were some mistakes in my play, a merman moving too early, another one doing a suicide, a failed luring on a vill around turn 10 and maybe more...

Anyways Doc watched this game and added some slight changes to the map.
The output can be downloaded in -> The Multiplayer Map Reader's Digest <-.
Attachments
nani_vs_secret_squirrel.gz
me(elves) vs secret_squirrel(orcs) on bfw v.1.4.3
(36.8 KiB) Downloaded 121 times

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anakayub
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by anakayub » September 6th, 2008, 9:09 am

Thanks; I'll take a look when I've time. Hopefully the replay isn't corrupted.

Anyways, it's always good to see replays whenever balance is discussed. :)
Take a breath.

Jozrael
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Re: Hornshark Island

Post by Jozrael » September 6th, 2008, 1:39 pm

I just talked to doc yesterday about his activity on mapmaking commenting and he's been busy and the situation seems to be continuing in his future. He'll be back on the forums regularly eventually he said.

(Just relaying)

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