Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Wesnothian » May 11th, 2008, 7:11 pm

Noy, you said I should find another game, that's what you say to everyone that attacks the luck system, what's wrong with you? Mentally [censored]? Why do you have to say that to everyone, and why do you always have to feel so offended, chill out and don't be so aggresive (Noy: Omg! How did you know this? You don't even know me! Wesnothian: Sorry sirs but I read alot of your posts, good game.)

Now, this isn't just a game that can be skipped, this is the only game that got my attention and the luck system ruins the fun of it.

@TL, it's not about losing the match of getting unlucky, it's about how it throws your strategy and tactics out of the window (if you are really unlucky, which because of this system is sooooo likely to happen).

To be honest this thread disgusts me, it's just so weird and dumb how this could be happening, has the world gone mad?
Where are those that seek for strategy and tactics instead of luck that pisses you off?

I'm not going to look at this thread again, let stand post in it, so I'd say I won, GG to you sir & bye. 8)
And then, Dave said "Let there be light." And there was light.
Wesnothian
 
Posts: 47
Joined: April 29th, 2008, 3:04 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby TL » May 11th, 2008, 7:13 pm

Wesnothian wrote:@TL, it's not about losing the match of getting unlucky, it's about how it throws your strategy and tactics out of the window (if you are really unlucky, which because of this system is sooooo likely to happen).


It's called contingency planning, son. A strategy that doesn't survive getting chucked out the window isn't much of a strategy.
User avatar
TL
 
Posts: 511
Joined: March 3rd, 2007, 3:02 am

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Noy » May 11th, 2008, 7:21 pm

Wesnothian wrote:Noy, you said I should find another game, that's what you say to everyone that attacks the luck system, what's wrong with you? Mentally [censored]? Why do you have to say that to everyone, and why do you always have to feel so offended, chill out and don't be so aggresive


Excuse me? How can you say that after I've written a small essay on the topic? We've been reasonable and accommodating in discussing luck. I think creating a thread talking about the rationale of luck is a pretty good sign of that. What have you posted in here beyond the following same tired argument;

Wesnothian wrote: it's not about losing the match of getting unlucky, it's about how it throws your strategy and tactics out of the window (if you are really unlucky, which because of this system is sooooo likely to happen).


What proof do you have that its "soooo likely to happen?" Where have you provided such proof, or had an argument? Whats your rationale for this? You've never even provided one.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
Noy
Developer
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby SumnerH » May 11th, 2008, 9:26 pm

My $.02: without luck, Wesnoth would be boring to me. It'd just be crunch the numbers and make mathematical moves, without needing to have multiple contigency plans for dealing with different possible outcomes of the battles.
SumnerH
 
Posts: 15
Joined: January 9th, 2008, 6:01 am

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby nataS » May 11th, 2008, 9:45 pm

If the RNG would be taken out it would result in even more people being unhappy, they play wesnoth for what it is now. If you think you don't like the luck you can make an addon that removed it. Think because you never even played wesnoth without the RNG, so it's possible you would quickly run back to wesnoth with RNG. If you can't create such an addon, and (for some reason) nobody else makes one either, you can always follow noys advice and play one of the many other games where luck doesn't play a part. It's really not offensive at all but a choice you make all the time on other subjects like the food you eat and the friends you pick.
nataS
 
Posts: 166
Joined: January 28th, 2008, 3:21 pm

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby anakayub » May 11th, 2008, 10:58 pm

Seriously, altering the RNG is like altering the no-hands rule in soccer.
Take a breath.
User avatar
anakayub
Moderator Emeritus
 
Posts: 518
Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 12:44 pm
Location: Malaysia

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby F50 » May 11th, 2008, 11:25 pm

I wouldn't mind altering the RNG, but its not a terrible issue for me. I don't think it would have that huge effect if the RNG was altered in the right way. Consider multiplying all unit's hp and number of strikes by 2. Any effect other than reducing luck would be psychological.

Considering the hostility of the wesnoth community towards RNG debates, and the way I feel about the matter (not strongly), I'm not about to seriously propose such a change, but I wouldn't mind if someone else did.
F50
 
Posts: 48
Joined: April 22nd, 2008, 9:59 pm

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby turin » May 11th, 2008, 11:30 pm

Wesnothian wrote:Noy, you said I should find another game, that's what you say to everyone that attacks the luck system, what's wrong with you? Mentally [censored]?
[...]

Personally, I wouldn't mind if you got banned for this post. :annoyed: You're just been a troll at this point.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
 
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Aethaeryn » May 12th, 2008, 12:04 am

I like randomness in Wesnoth. Without "luck," there'd be a lot more leavers. You blame your losses on luck, but you forget that randomness also gives you hope - a really close or slightly-losing match can be turned around by luck, if you are good enough to know how to adapt to it. Randomness also shortens matches (that are pretty long if you don't play on maps like Isar's) - if you take a risk on a 50% or a 60%, you can break a stalemate (and if you lose that chance, at least the game's over rather than dragging on another 20 turns). To be good you need to plan to change your plans if you have to - a good player expects and plans on that Dark Adept missing one of his magic strikes.
User avatar
Aethaeryn
Translator
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: September 15th, 2007, 10:21 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Wintermute » May 12th, 2008, 1:06 am

It is easy to think that one understands the system, but the reality is that things are very much more complicated than most players realize. That is one of the aspects of Wesnoth that keeps me coming back. It takes a long time to really fully grasp the subtleties of the system. After two years of playing I am still continuing to improve - I.E. I have not 'mastered' the game.

F50 wrote:I wouldn't mind altering the RNG, but its not a terrible issue for me. I don't think it would have that huge effect if the RNG was altered in the right way. Consider multiplying all unit's hp and number of strikes by 2. Any effect other than reducing luck would be psychological.


This not true at all, there are many ways this would impact the current system: healing, poison, swarm, the healthy trait, are examples off the top of my head. Perhaps those could also be modified, but the point is that making changes is something that is more carefully thought through than is perhaps obvious to the average player. Not to mention the fact that a great many in game situations would have VERY DIFFERENT probable outcomes by changing the number of strikes a unit has.

A simple example: The thunderer has one strike. Giving it two (even if every other unit gets their strikes doubled) makes it a very different unit from a probability point of view. Suppose a thunderer is shooting a unit that has 5 hp left and the unit has 40% def. That thunderer has a 60% ctk the unit in the attack. Now if we double hp and strikes, one strike will still kill the unit, but you have TWO chances to do that. Thus you have a 84% ctk the unit.

Now suppose we have a shaman attacking instead, and the suppose that the shaman is dealing 3-2. Currently, the shaman needs 2/2 strikes to hit in this case, so a 36% ctk. After doubling the hp and strikes, the shaman need 4/4 hits to kill a 10 hp unit, which is about a 13% ctk.

So your proposal would make the thunderer much better in this case (and many other cases), and the shaman worse in this case. Setting aside any benefits from such a change, my point (that hopefully should be obvious now) is that this is not as simple a change as you might think. :wink:
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
User avatar
Wintermute
Developer
 
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Dave » May 12th, 2008, 2:44 am

Wesnothian wrote:
nataS wrote:I think it ultimately comes down to it if you like wesnoth with luck or you don't. Just like some people like certain foods, and others distaste it. One group of people likes a certain sports, while others hate it. And there are probably also some that don't like one type of food but eat it anyway. For wesnoth I personally enjoy the part where luck comes in and the influence it has on the game. One thing people that think they dislike wesnoth without the element of luck will have to consider, is that nobody has ever achieved it to create a popular addon that takes away the luck. While this is very well possible. Leading to the conclusion that, while some complain, there is no demand for a wesnoth without random number generator at all.


The problem here is, people like Wesnoth but they don't like the luck system, just like if you like a sport but you don't like a rule of that sport, instead of keep playing that sport but yet accepting that rule that annoys you and irritates you, I'd take action and try to take down that rule to make it a more satisfying sport, just like how people tried to take action against the luck system to have more fun in Wesnoth,


I think that this misses the entire point of the rationale. The entire point was that the luck system is fundamental to how Wesnoth works. It's not some optional rule that you can just go ahead and remove. It's a fundamental part of the game system and gives the game the interesting analytical characteristics it has. It's not some optional extra I added on when I designed the game for the sake of being arbitrary.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Dave
Founding Developer
 
Posts: 7064
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby JW » May 12th, 2008, 2:47 am

Dave wrote:Additionally, a big reason why the Fire Emblem approach works in Fire Emblem is that the Fire Emblem AI isn't...really even an AI. It is closer to being 'scripted'. The enemy doesn't move intelligently at all. Most enemy units just stand still until you move in range, then they charge forward and attack. This makes Fire Emblem closer to a puzzle game than a strategy game. If Wesnoth used a Fire Emblem-like system, there is no way you could keep all your units alive, because the AI simply wouldn't be that dumb. There would be situations that would be simply intractable for you to avoid losing units in.

David

TBH, Wesnoth AI isn't really that great either, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here. Games against AI in a "standard" MP game require you to give the AI far more resources to even come close to matching a decent player, and even then simple tricks will often win you the game. SP is only hard because of overwhelming opponents and turn limits. In this way you could say Wesnoth AI is also close to a "puzzle" in that you just need to figure out the tricks that make it do stupid things.

The only time where people get a legitimate challenge playing Wesnoth is in MP. As mentioned though, there are no certainties in MP due to how luck factors in. Therefore, it's not a challenge in the traditional sense, where there is a path to victory if only you could figure it out: any strategy can be defeated by any inferior strategy given the right chance. Even if this is unlikely, it is a flaw.

Just my opinion.
User avatar
JW
 
Posts: 5041
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Dave » May 12th, 2008, 2:54 am

JW wrote:
Dave wrote:Additionally, a big reason why the Fire Emblem approach works in Fire Emblem is that the Fire Emblem AI isn't...really even an AI. It is closer to being 'scripted'. The enemy doesn't move intelligently at all. Most enemy units just stand still until you move in range, then they charge forward and attack. This makes Fire Emblem closer to a puzzle game than a strategy game. If Wesnoth used a Fire Emblem-like system, there is no way you could keep all your units alive, because the AI simply wouldn't be that dumb. There would be situations that would be simply intractable for you to avoid losing units in.

David

TBH, Wesnoth AI isn't really that great either, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here.


There is no real comparison between the Wesnoth AI and the Fire Emblem AI. The Wesnoth AI isn't near as good as a strong player, but it's FAR and away much much better than the Fire Emblem AI.

Playing a Wesnoth campaign requires plenty of strategy and planning and lots of people enjoy it greatly. Fire Emblem doesn't play like this at all, and it's because the AI is very very weak.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Dave
Founding Developer
 
Posts: 7064
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Dave » May 12th, 2008, 2:57 am

turin wrote:
Wesnothian wrote:Noy, you said I should find another game, that's what you say to everyone that attacks the luck system, what's wrong with you? Mentally [censored]?
[...]

Personally, I wouldn't mind if you got banned for this post. :annoyed: You're just been a troll at this point.


Indeed, this kind of thing is unacceptable. I have PMed him to warn him that if he does it again, he will be banned.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Dave
Founding Developer
 
Posts: 7064
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby JW » May 12th, 2008, 3:03 am

Dave wrote:There is no real comparison between the Wesnoth AI and the Fire Emblem AI. The Wesnoth AI isn't near as good as a strong player, but it's FAR and away much much better than the Fire Emblem AI.

Playing a Wesnoth campaign requires plenty of strategy and planning and lots of people enjoy it greatly. Fire Emblem doesn't play like this at all, and it's because the AI is very very weak.

David

Well I would request that you compare Wesnoth to a game with better AI and perhaps a different system as well, instead of only using "favorable matchups" if you will. I have never played Fire Emblem, but I have played Tactics Ogre. There is randomness in TO, but the attacker can help his percentages by attacking from behind. Also, the AI is exceptional to that of Wesnoth's.

This example is probably on the exact opposite end of the spectrum though.
User avatar
JW
 
Posts: 5041
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

PreviousNext

Return to Users’ Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests