Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Dave » May 10th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Fosprey wrote:Now, it;s easy for me to undestand why you like luck in your game, the moment you also establish that you don't like competition.
You refuse to put a ladder, stats, etc, and stated that think competition hurt the community.


You are mistaken about this.

I have never said that competition hurts the community. I think competition is great.

However, it has to be the right kind of competition. What I am not in favor of is a rating system that becomes pervasive on the multiplayer server, where every game or almost every game affects one's rating. I think this would lead to a situation where people start focusing over-heavily on their rating system, start trying to game the rating system itself, and so forth. People would play games based on whether the game has the potential to improve their rating, and so on and so forth.

The kind of competition I'm in favor is are things like round robin tournaments. We've had a number of developer-created round robin tournaments in the past, and I think they are excellent and competitive. And guess what? The same players tended to end up as winners each time.

I'm also rather okay with some kind of "ladder" where certain games are designated as ladder games and moves one up and down on the ladder. People have organized such things, and I think they are a good idea.

The only real aspect of competitive play I'm opposed to is the idea of having some pervasive ranking system that all participants on the mp server are pressured into participating in.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Gallifax » May 10th, 2008, 4:08 pm

David: Yes I can see the effects of what you mentioned allready in the current ladder. Some players use aliases to play it, and most care more for their ranking than competitive games. Only players like Soliton , Pietro, Wm and some more play everyone regardless of outcome.


So I can really say its a good thing ladder is seperate and we dont have an integrated ratingsystem in bfw.
For me its sometimes realy hard to get good games as some players avoid to play a game with me.

The dilemma is ladder had so much impact that ist hard to get comeptitive games without quitters either:)


Doc: I knwo you wil be reading this. So looks like we need TOC4:P
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Fosprey » May 10th, 2008, 5:10 pm

Then you should ask the same players that avoid you, to just play non-ladder games!

Dave: Sorry if i misinterpreted you (that's the correct spelling?guess not).
I have to say that i value some of the randomness effects. It's just that i don't like it's price
Good to understamd better the reasons you don't implement a rating system, and i have to give you credit, because it's reasonable, i think that the actual ladder system we are using now works pretty well. Now i can find opponents quicker, and most of the time i know what my opponent skill is.
I didn't note the same probelms as gallifax did, but i wouldn't be surprised to be so.

In fact i wouldn't be surprised if right now because of the ladder, there is someone trying to find a way to cheat.
Now this is a price, i'm willing to pay, but everyone have different goal, and thus we are willing to give away where others don't.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Dark_Beer_Adept » May 11th, 2008, 9:52 am

In my opinion luck is in nature of wesnoth sometimes it ruin your strategy, sometimes have no effect on result other make you win, personally i cant see how you can have more fun if all become as you expected. Also dont understand where is the problem between luck and competition, looking at sports there are many points that players and trainers cant control as weather or arbitratement that can be relevant for the results but there are competions.
beer can flow or it can clash, be beer my friend
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby suokko » May 11th, 2008, 10:39 am

Fosprey: Try bridge to play. Poker tactics to manage luck is extremely limited if you compare bridge or wesnoth.

Wesnoth has a lot of tactical choices that can make luck a lot less factor. This usually makes game longer but that is what you are looking for: better player is usually winning.

Main problem in MP games are that losing one troop gives your opponent quite huge advantage (about 10% usually) so you are better of playing very safe until losing a troop in a unlucky battle has a lot less weight (less than 5%). Of course this requires very advanced tactics :P

One aspect of poker that should be learned by wesnoth players is folding. You have to know when to give up trying to win a skirmish to improve your overall position.

My thought abouts no ladder and rating system is the cheating problem. Wesnoth MP is not designed to prevent cheating at all so any rating system or ladder attracts a lot of cheating. Then cheaters are gonig to cheat in normal games too which would make playing wesnoth a lot less fun for competitive minded players.

PS. Why NHL, NBA etc has so many playoffs matches? Even in high level sports there is a lot luck involved. (That is comparable to wesnoth)
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby sam_waz_here » May 11th, 2008, 10:59 am

Luck should stay in Wesnoth because there are already a million games out there that don't rely on luck, to put it into slogan form: Battle for Wesnoth is fighting the conformity of the luckless game.
Where is the love?
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Fosprey » May 11th, 2008, 12:28 pm

In fact saw_was_here, that's not ture, 99% of games of games of incomplete information have randomness on it, to not say 100% just because i can be forgetting someting.
99% of games of complete information that are based on electronics, have randomness on it, really don't know what game are you talking about.
yes there are like a 10% of games that have very little randomness, two examples i can thik of are starcraft and counterstrike, wich besides the height miss and hit system i don't think has randomness.(curiosly those are the main games that represent e-sport competition)
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Wesnothian » May 11th, 2008, 12:35 pm

This is very nice and all, but this still doesn't change my (and plenty of others) opinion that the luck system can be slightly
changed so it doesn't make you lose a game because of the luck that throws your strategy and tactics out of the window,
which pisses the hell out of me.
And then, Dave said "Let there be light." And there was light.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Fosprey » May 11th, 2008, 12:41 pm

To be honest, i don't think it's worth arguing this wesnothian, a lot of people enjoy the system like it is, and there is no reason they should see a change after so much time, as i said, people not interested in competition is a lot, and they should not suffer from a minority.
Considering that it's open source game, and the wml is pretty powerfull, (and becoming more powerfull as far as i can note in 1.5), people that want this game but with some changes can work in an era that fits them better, wich is exactly what i will do.
In fact i'm not arguiing any more for the porpouse on hoping any change on the default, i'm just arguing becuse it just piss me off how some people deny the luck influence in the game, as i said before.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Wesnothian » May 11th, 2008, 1:09 pm

Fosprey wrote:To be honest, i don't think it's worth arguing this wesnothian, a lot of people enjoy the system like it is, and there is no reason they should see a change after so much time, as i said, people not interested in competition is a lot, and they should not suffer from a minority.
Considering that it's open source game, and the wml is pretty powerfull, (and becoming more powerfull as far as i can note in 1.5), people that want this game but with some changes can work in an era that fits them better, wich is exactly what i will do.
In fact i'm not arguiing any more for the porpouse on hoping any change on the default, i'm just arguing becuse
it just piss me off how some people deny the luck influence in the game
, as i said before.


Which also pisses the hell out of me.
And then, Dave said "Let there be light." And there was light.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Dave » May 11th, 2008, 5:31 pm

Fosprey wrote:To be honest, i don't think it's worth arguing this wesnothian, a lot of people enjoy the system like it is, and there is no reason they should see a change after so much time, as i said, people not interested in competition is a lot, and they should not suffer from a minority.
Considering that it's open source game, and the wml is pretty powerfull, (and becoming more powerfull as far as i can note in 1.5), people that want this game but with some changes can work in an era that fits them better, wich is exactly what i will do.
In fact i'm not arguiing any more for the porpouse on hoping any change on the default, i'm just arguing becuse it just piss me off how some people deny the luck influence in the game, as i said before.


I don't think anyone denies that luck has a huge influence on the game. In fact, luck is a fundamental and crucial part of the game. If luck didn't have an influence on the game, we would scrap it.

What is argued against is that some people have a misguided view that lucky/unlucky streaks occur in Wesnoth much more than with 'real' random numbers, or that incredibly unlucky rolls 'ruin' a huge number of games. This is what I do not think is so.

David
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby nataS » May 11th, 2008, 5:55 pm

I think it ultimately comes down to it if you like wesnoth with luck or you don't. Just like some people like certain foods, and others distaste it. One group of people likes a certain sports, while others hate it. And there are probably also some that don't like one type of food but eat it anyway. For wesnoth I personally enjoy the part where luck comes in and the influence it has on the game. One thing people that think they dislike wesnoth without the element of luck will have to consider, is that nobody has ever achieved it to create a popular addon that takes away the luck. While this is very well possible. Leading to the conclusion that, while some complain, there is no demand for a wesnoth without random number generator at all.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Wesnothian » May 11th, 2008, 6:06 pm

nataS wrote:I think it ultimately comes down to it if you like wesnoth with luck or you don't. Just like some people like certain foods, and others distaste it. One group of people likes a certain sports, while others hate it. And there are probably also some that don't like one type of food but eat it anyway. For wesnoth I personally enjoy the part where luck comes in and the influence it has on the game. One thing people that think they dislike wesnoth without the element of luck will have to consider, is that nobody has ever achieved it to create a popular addon that takes away the luck. While this is very well possible. Leading to the conclusion that, while some complain, there is no demand for a wesnoth without random number generator at all.


The problem here is, people like Wesnoth but they don't like the luck system, just like if you like a sport but you don't like a rule of that sport, instead of keep playing that sport but yet accepting that rule that annoys you and irritates you, I'd take action and try to take down that rule to make it a more satisfying sport, just like how people tried to take action against the luck system to have more fun in Wesnoth, I like Wesnoth, but the luck system always gets in my way and the people defending the luck system, they are all a wall which can't be penetrated, and if you try to, they will gangbang you 10 vs 1 untill you accept that the luck system is part of the game and can't be changed, this all is a horrible sight for me and probably others who tried to take action against this.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby Noy » May 11th, 2008, 6:54 pm

Wesnothian wrote:
nataS wrote:I think it ultimately comes down to it if you like wesnoth with luck or you don't. Just like some people like certain foods, and others distaste it. One group of people likes a certain sports, while others hate it. And there are probably also some that don't like one type of food but eat it anyway. For wesnoth I personally enjoy the part where luck comes in and the influence it has on the game. One thing people that think they dislike wesnoth without the element of luck will have to consider, is that nobody has ever achieved it to create a popular addon that takes away the luck. While this is very well possible. Leading to the conclusion that, while some complain, there is no demand for a wesnoth without random number generator at all.


The problem here is, people like Wesnoth but they don't like the luck system, just like if you like a sport but you don't like a rule of that sport, instead of keep playing that sport but yet accepting that rule that annoys you and irritates you, I'd take action and try to take down that rule to make it a more satisfying sport, just like how people tried to take action against the luck system to have more fun in Wesnoth, I like Wesnoth, but the luck system always gets in my way and the people defending the luck system, they are all a wall which can't be penetrated, and if you try to, they will gangbang you 10 vs 1 untill you accept that the luck system is part of the game and can't be changed, this all is a horrible sight for me and probably others who tried to take action against this.


Then play another game. I know that sounds harsh but thats the sad truth. This isn't "just a rule." Its THE core aspect of gameplay. Changing it in any way would ruin the game system, for the worse. You complain about the game ruining your strategies. Thats the whole point.

As I pointed out in my post, this is by no means a unique system; its widespread across a whole genre of games, right from its earliest origins. For two hundred years people have been playing strategy games with a randomized element, for very good reason. Kriegsspiel, the learning tool for the Imperial German Army in 1824 Was played with a 10 sided die. It seems to me maybe this genre of games isn't suited for you.

And to your point that this is 10v1 I have no sympathy for you given your posting behaviour. You're arguing against something that has a very deep logic behind it, with argumentation that is based on your dislike of the system, not a detailed discussions of its pros and cons. Maybe you should consider why its 10v1 rather than why everybody is wrong from your opinion. And its not because we're a bunch of ignorant, hurtful people. If you look at the threads people have been trying to reason with you, and you have failed to accept that maybe they do have a legitimate argument. Where have you made a consistent, well thought out argument that addresses all the points Dave and I made?

Instead you've been quick to retort that we're being oppressive, which indicates to me that you haven't thought this through. Is by us posting such arguments that we are oppressing you? That annoys alot of us. Its a sign you're being closed minded, and we don't appreciate it.
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Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Postby TL » May 11th, 2008, 6:57 pm

*shrug*

Maybe I just don't play standard Wesnoth matches often enough, but I've never really had the luck system actually get in the way of the game for me. Yes, the outcomes of many matches do come down to luck--but not, in my experience, at the expense of competitive skill. True "upsets" just don't seem to happen very often, and when they do they're generally avoidable situations (e.g. leaving a leader in a position where it might survive means you're deliberately staking the match on one throw of the dice, but generally that's never going to be necessary unless you're already in a very bad situation).

I mean, if I'm playing an inferior player, and he gets ridiculously lucky... then it just takes me longer to win. If I'm playing an opponent who's evenly matched with myself and he gets luckier than me, he's very probably going to win, but... so what? Is that supposed to bother me somehow?
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