Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Locked
hiro hito
Posts: 201
Joined: November 23rd, 2006, 8:00 am

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by hiro hito » October 16th, 2008, 8:57 pm

i don't want to start a new debate, but you may notice that english is not my mother tongue...

So when i mean players with same skill, understand with equal experience or level...... I hope this is clearer and less comical... :?

i think that the first 10 players in ladder (just to give exemple) have the same skill, or level.... right?

so now reconsider my post above please....
"Of course His Majesty is a pacifist. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed.Thus, gradually, he began to lead toward war."-Emperor Shòwa (Enlightened Peace)'s chief cabinet secretary

Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1534
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by Soliton » October 16th, 2008, 9:12 pm

What would you like to decide a game between players of equal skill?
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

User avatar
Doc Paterson
Drake Cartographer
Posts: 1973
Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
Location: Kazakh
Contact:

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by Doc Paterson » October 16th, 2008, 9:39 pm

hiro hito wrote: i think that the first 10 players in ladder (just to give exemple) have the same skill, or level.... right?
In my humble opinion, hellz no.

Take a closer look, and make use of eyerouge and company's special statistics in the player profiles. Total matches played has a huge bearing on someone's standing in the ladder. Compare for example, the stats for Pagan (#10), who has played only 44 matches, with the stats for Pelopidas (#7), who has played 190 matches. Take a look at all of the players in the top ten; their win percentages and the points that they usually get when they win and lose. If a decent player plays well over a hundred games and is making even the smallest gain (on average) per match, you can bet that they'll probably make it into the top 10 there sooner or later. A great example of that is plk2, who as you can see is gaining about an average of 1.2 points per match. He's played 279 matches though, so he's been in and out of the top 10 (He's 19 right now, but I'm guessing he'll rebound if he keeps up this pace). Things might eventually stabilize, but it will take a long time, and even then, it will still be kind of susceptible to bottom feeding.

Don't get me wrong though- I don't hate the ladder. I just think that many tend to think of it as a better gauge of player skill than it actually is.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

MDG
Posts: 378
Joined: June 7th, 2007, 11:18 am
Location: UK

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by MDG » October 16th, 2008, 10:44 pm

Soliton wrote:What would you like to decide a game between players of equal skill?
8)

I'm struggling to find words to describe how damn awesome Soliton's post is (on so many level's).

hiro hito
Posts: 201
Joined: November 23rd, 2006, 8:00 am

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by hiro hito » October 17th, 2008, 5:53 am

ok... so Leocrotta hasn't the same level of playing of Gallifax or Pagan... (so amasing!)

when Pagan wants to play Gallifax, he says to himself that he will play someone with a different skill!!!!
Soliton: when you played Pietro during the TOC you think you were playnig a player with a different skill???
I was talking about ladder just to give exemple (read the post), on server you know who are the players you find easy/hard to fight...5at least the ones you already played...)

But the problem is the same why best players do not play more often together??? Maybe because it is really hard to show who is the best and because a huge amount of luck can make a match really poor and with no interest...
"Of course His Majesty is a pacifist. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed.Thus, gradually, he began to lead toward war."-Emperor Shòwa (Enlightened Peace)'s chief cabinet secretary

bert1
Posts: 240
Joined: December 6th, 2006, 10:39 pm
Location: Morecambe, UK

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by bert1 » October 17th, 2008, 9:16 am

Soliton wrote:What would you like to decide a game between players of equal skill?
Presumably nothing, if perfect discrimination is the aim. It should always be a draw, assuming the idea of equal skill is coherent (which it isn't).
Good is simply that which is willed. - Eugene Halliday

Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1534
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by Soliton » October 17th, 2008, 9:28 am

hiro hito wrote:Soliton: when you played Pietro during the TOC you think you were playnig a player with a different skill???
Certainly. We are (were) quite different players.

Maybe for you skill is but a simple number that neatly sums up a player's strength?
bert1 wrote:
Soliton wrote:What would you like to decide a game between players of equal skill?
Presumably nothing, if perfect discrimination is the aim. It should always be a draw, assuming the idea of equal skill is coherent (which it isn't).
Indeed. (Wondering a bit why hiro hito didn't say that...) The question then is whether that would really be desirable considering what a draw in wesnoth (and in most other games?) is like?
Though as was said it is very unlikely that there are two players of the same skill to begin with...
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

AI
Developer
Posts: 2394
Joined: January 31st, 2008, 8:38 pm

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by AI » October 17th, 2008, 12:44 pm

Two roughly equally matched players can indeed get into a stalematish back-and-forth game, one that won't be lost until either side decides to take an actual risk.

User avatar
JW
Posts: 5041
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by JW » October 17th, 2008, 1:25 pm

I always wondered, if Wesnoth truly can determine someone's skill, why one MP dev would never play 1v1s, yet is the biggest supporter of Wesnoth's luck.

tigregf
Posts: 3
Joined: August 18th, 2008, 5:37 pm

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by tigregf » October 17th, 2008, 4:41 pm

YOU CANNOT MANAGE LUCK.

Some people ARE lucky, others NOT.

hiro hito
Posts: 201
Joined: November 23rd, 2006, 8:00 am

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by hiro hito » October 17th, 2008, 4:59 pm

ok i think that i used bad words to explain what i wanted.

Far from me to say that 2 players can be identical... and that is not what i want to say when i used "same skill"...

So i will take AI's words, they seem more appropriate:

During a match between two roughly equally matched players, a huge amount of luck may appears in one side.( it doesn't appear ALL the time, i know it...). I hope that everyone can be agree with that?!....

During THIS match, i don't see how the "unlucky" player can manage this "unluck" and win the game...
Dave wrote:This is one of the key gameplay facets of Wesnoth: managing luck.
It's ok with that but it should exist a way to manage luck IN ANY CASE, and in especially with the case above... IF not, what is reason to play? I only see 2 reasons:

1-Wait for a mistake from the opponent, we know that top players don't do it so often... So in the case i talk about, just above, only the second reason is possible:

2-Wait for the end of the match or surrender.... because there is no way to win against this huge amount of luck...

I repeat that random is necessary ( we are agree with that) but it should be a way to counter big luck or big unluck. I dont know the good solution yet but i think that a new fog of war may works, or another RNG system that make the game be less a lotery competition...
"Of course His Majesty is a pacifist. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed.Thus, gradually, he began to lead toward war."-Emperor Shòwa (Enlightened Peace)'s chief cabinet secretary

User avatar
ADmiral-N
Posts: 62
Joined: March 24th, 2008, 1:14 am
Contact:

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by ADmiral-N » October 17th, 2008, 6:07 pm

I think this is a good time to point out my list of 4 suggestions to fix the perceived lack of control in Wesnoth. All of them can be implemented independent of the others.
Subspace! Subspace is freeware and is the longest-running massively multiplayer internet space combat game in the world.

User avatar
Doc Paterson
Drake Cartographer
Posts: 1973
Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
Location: Kazakh
Contact:

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by Doc Paterson » October 17th, 2008, 8:17 pm

tigregf wrote:YOU CANNOT MANAGE LUCK.

Some people ARE lucky, others NOT.
Well, I'm glad we got that straightened out.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

User avatar
JW
Posts: 5041
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by JW » October 17th, 2008, 10:38 pm

Doc Paterson wrote:Well, I'm glad we got that straightened out.
Me too.

So when will the fix be implemented?

ilor
Developer
Posts: 129
Joined: March 24th, 2008, 9:05 pm

Re: Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale

Post by ilor » October 17th, 2008, 10:43 pm

Some people ARE lucky, others NOT.
it's an upstream problem, Wesnoth can't fix it. If you are in general not lucky, complain to the deity of your choice.

Locked