I've just been learning the value of shamans :)

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mr_moose
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I've just been learning the value of shamans :)

Post by mr_moose »

Hi all -

I've played Wesnoth for about two years or so, but have (in that time) almost never used shamans, being hesitant about how powerful they can be.

So tonight, I bit the bullet and decided "Right, this time I'm recruiting a few shamans and I'll see how it goes". It went very well!

It'll take a wee while to get used to including shamans, but I'm sold on their value. I can now see clearly (and more importantly, *believe*) that their ability to slow and to heal is *very* useful! ( I could have used a few of them when tackling "The Lost General". Arrgh.... :). Next time there, I'll use them (and should have, by that time, a few of them advanced to Shyde etc). Anyway, that's my 2c worth - I've learned and convinced myself that shamans are great! :) Bye for now -
- mr_moose

Higher Game
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Post by Higher Game »

Shamans were really weak in the old version, where simply reducing the enemy's attack by 1 didn't matter that much for multi hit units, and few hit units, like woses and horsemen, often aren't even in range, since they are used to bust through defenses, and cannon fodder immediately get in and get in the way.

The new slow now reduces overall damage, not number of attacks, so it's much better. They're mainly useful for defense, due to how they slow an enemy down and heal your guys. They are nice against Undead and Northerners, since these are offensive factions that will own you on the first night if you aren't ready. Against factions like the Loyalists, where you want to be the aggressor on the first night, they're less useful, so make archers instead to deal more damage.

Tux2B
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Post by Tux2B »

While I first thought you were speaking about Orcish shamans, who were indeed incredibly week but IIRC been improved, I finally understood you're speaking about the elvish shamans, and I can't quite believe you've been playing Wesnoth for longer than I did without recruiting them... They're a very valuable unit, most of all since they've become cheap. And they are quite easy to level up. The only thing that is sad about them is that their advancement tree violates RIPBLIP. Same thing goes with woses the last time I used them : while lvl1 ones had 4 movement points, lvl2 and lvl3 ones had 3.
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon

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George Mason
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Post by George Mason »

Tux2B wrote: their advancement tree violates RIPBLIP. Same thing goes with woses the last time I used them : while lvl1 ones had 4 movement points, lvl2 and lvl3 ones had 3.
I believe you are mistaken. Perhaps you downgraded your version of Wesnoth at the time of advancement.
I flew a nuclear bomb into a chasm to save all you punks, and this is the thanks I get?

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Iris
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Re: I've just been learning the value of shamans :)

Post by Iris »

mr_moose wrote:It'll take a wee while to get used to including shamans, but I'm sold on their value. I can now see clearly (and more importantly, *believe*) that their ability to slow and to heal is *very* useful! ( I could have used a few of them when tackling "The Lost General". Arrgh.... :). Next time there, I'll use them (and should have, by that time, a few of them advanced to Shyde etc).
I usually get there with one Enchantress and one Shyde in my recruit list. I only recall the Shyde and use her for capturing villages, since elves aren't really useful underground. I only attack using dwarves there, and never risk my L3+ elves (specially the Shaman line). However, I can say that the Shaman line can be really, really useful in "the Scepter of Fire" (the HttT scenario.

The entangle attack is even more useful when you fight against undead units, since, apart from "slowing" them, it also causes them more damange because it's an impact attack.

BTW, all the Shaman line units have 5 movement points (except for the L3 Shyde and L4 Sylph, which have 6 m. points), unless you get one with the 'quick' trait (which usually weakens them).

Tux2B
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Post by Tux2B »

George Mason wrote:
Tux2B wrote: their advancement tree violates RIPBLIP. Same thing goes with woses the last time I used them : while lvl1 ones had 4 movement points, lvl2 and lvl3 ones had 3.
I believe you are mistaken. Perhaps you downgraded your version of Wesnoth at the time of advancement.
Huh? No, I didn't. But I haven't played much in version 1.2 yet, and I have been installing versions 1.0.2 to 1.1.13 in the same directory so there might have been some problems with files not being overwritten correctly. I don't know and it actually doesn't bother me, because from what you wrote I think it can be infered that if the problem I had really have existed, it has been corrected, and that if it hasn't, then it was a problem with only my own Wesnoth installation that was wrong.
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon

mr_moose
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Hi again all ...

Post by mr_moose »

Hi again all -

Good to see everyone's comments on shamans.
I think shaman-type units may be pretty useful in scenarios like "The Lost General" where you have nasty trolls coming at you. Being able to slow them
(therefore halving their hit-points for a turn) will be great! I may even look at trolls as a useful target for levelling-up... :)

Oh, btw - Tux2B, what does RIPBLIP mean?
- mr_moose

Gus
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Re: Hi again all ...

Post by Gus »

mr_moose wrote:Hi again all -

Oh, btw - Tux2B, what does RIPBLIP mean?
- mr_moose
I guess he meant RIPLIB, which means "Reduction In Power when Leveling Is Bad". This concept means that, for a given unit of a given level, if there is one or more possible advancements, then at least one of them must make the unit at least as effective as it was in any given situation.

Illustrations:
A level 1 units has a 5-3 Cold melee attack and a 2-3 Fire ranged attack. There MUST be a choice for a level 2 that has all the following characteristics:
- a X-Y Cold melee attack where X is 5 or more and Y is 3 or more.
- a X-Y Fire ranged attack where X is 2 or more and Y is 3 or more.
- HP equal or greater, movement equal or greater, resistances equal or greater.
As long as there is ONE advancement that agrees with those requirements, then you can have as many other advancing options as you want that don't.

One of the problems with the Shamans, for example, is that the level 4 suffers from an Impact weakness that is new to the line, so it doesn't agree with RIPLIB.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

Tux2B
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Re: Hi again all ...

Post by Tux2B »

Gus wrote:
mr_moose wrote:Hi again all -

Oh, btw - Tux2B, what does RIPBLIP mean?
- mr_moose
I guess he meant RIPLIB, which means "Reduction In Power when Leveling Is Bad". This concept means that, for a given unit of a given level, if there is one or more possible advancements, then at least one of them must make the unit at least as effective as it was in any given situation.

Illustrations:
A level 1 units has a 5-3 Cold melee attack and a 2-3 Fire ranged attack. There MUST be a choice for a level 2 that has all the following characteristics:
- a X-Y Cold melee attack where X is 5 or more and Y is 3 or more.
- a X-Y Fire ranged attack where X is 2 or more and Y is 3 or more.
- HP equal or greater, movement equal or greater, resistances equal or greater.
As long as there is ONE advancement that agrees with those requirements, then you can have as many other advancing options as you want that don't.

One of the problems with the Shamans, for example, is that the level 4 suffers from an Impact weakness that is new to the line, so it doesn't agree with RIPLIB.
I couldn't have dreamt about someone answering this question any better. And I indeed did a typing mistake.
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon

mr_moose
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Hi again all ...

Post by mr_moose »

Tux2B wrote:
Gus wrote: I guess he meant RIPLIB, which means "Reduction In Power when Leveling Is Bad". This concept means that, for a given unit of a given level, if there is one or more possible advancements, then at least one of them must make the unit at least as effective as it was in any given situation.

Illustrations:
A level 1 units has a 5-3 Cold melee attack and a 2-3 Fire ranged attack. There MUST be a choice for a level 2 that has all the following characteristics:
- a X-Y Cold melee attack where X is 5 or more and Y is 3 or more.
- a X-Y Fire ranged attack where X is 2 or more and Y is 3 or more.
- HP equal or greater, movement equal or greater, resistances equal or greater.
As long as there is ONE advancement that agrees with those requirements, then you can have as many other advancing options as you want that don't.

One of the problems with the Shamans, for example, is that the level 4 suffers from an Impact weakness that is new to the line, so it doesn't agree with RIPLIB.
I couldn't have dreamt about someone answering this question any better. And I indeed did a typing mistake.
Ahh... understood! Thanks very much for this, Gus and Tux2B... :)
- mr_moose

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Iris
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Re: Hi again all ...

Post by Iris »

Gus wrote:One of the problems with the Shamans, for example, is that the level 4 suffers from an Impact weakness that is new to the line, so it doesn't agree with RIPLIB.
I hadn't noticed it before! I thoughtthe entire line had that weakness.
Well, anyway, the great reason because of which I never risk these units, is because they're cute. :wink:

Gus
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Re: Hi again all ...

Post by Gus »

Tux2B wrote: I couldn't have dreamt about someone answering this question any better.
:oops:

*giggles like a 12-y.o. girl*
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

Tux2B
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Re: Hi again all ...

Post by Tux2B »

Gus wrote:
Tux2B wrote: I couldn't have dreamt about someone answering this question any better.
:oops:

*giggles like a 12-y.o. girl*
:o Huh? Ah yes. Well I guess the correct way to phrase what I meant was "I couldn't have dreamt about any better way to answer this question and someone just did my job answering that way* but I thought it was a little long. I really don't see what in that would make a 12-y.o. girl giggle : was it RIPLIB part? Or the dream about answers?
As you're French and that I am French too I guess it's just something French people always do : giggle about everything. No offence. It's just something I don't like about being in France : you have to watch everything you say because it could be misinterpretated. But I'm going OT so I'll stop ranting about my own country now.
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon

Gus
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Post by Gus »

It was a nice compliment, hence the blushing and the giggling.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

Tux2B
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Post by Tux2B »

OK. I guess I overreacted a little, sorry. I'm still a little tired from travelling and from the Dutch way of celebrating January 1st which is watching fireworks until more than 2 o'clock (I don't complain : those fireworks are great. I'm just tired and school starts tommorow)
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon

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