The South Guard needs to be removed

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Elestel
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Post by Elestel »

In fact, SotBE WAS an official campaign and the first for chaotics...
Last edited by Elestel on January 5th, 2007, 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Taurus
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Post by Taurus »

For the reccord, SotBE is compleate and fully playable without any major bugs. It is not 100% pollished or ballanced, but I feel it is pretty good. Besides, I am still around constanty refining, polishing and patching up bugs as they come up or I am made aware of them.

As for Northern Rebirth, I have been stedily imporving it for the past few months. I actually just made a pretty dramatic release just a few hours ago (1.17), which I would say improves the overall camapgin by at least 75%. So before writing it off compleatly I would at least check out what has been done to it. At the very least, read the text to the first scenario and you will get what I mean.

Edit: I actually should mention however, that although the main storyline is compleate, I am currantly working on an undead branch which parallels the main storyline with the same characters and all. Since this branch is not compleate I don't know weither or not that disqualifies it from being consitered for the mainline...
Creater of the campaign, "Northern Rebirth"

Compleater of the campaign, "Son of the Black Eye"

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santi
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Post by santi »

Well, Liberty is a complete campaign that has been around for quite some time, though scott left. I also like RoTL and The unstoppable Hordes.
The North wind had some promise, but it apparently has been abandoned.
At the risk of sounding self-promoting, Legend of Wesmere and Delf's Memoirs are campaigns that are important in the large-scale history
of Wesnoth. They explain a lot and account for much of the history and background
of Wesnoth. By comparison, Two brothers is 'just a footnote' at best in Wesnoth history, which says nothing however on it being fun or not.
TROW, HttT and EI also are a major part of Wesnoth's story.
SoTBE could be too, as could SoF, though it does conflict with HttT.
Certainely Delf's memoirs is not complete and last time I checked had
many bugs. Legend of Wesmere is complete for some time now, 1.2-compatible and looks bug-free. Many people like it and want to see it mainline,
but not everybody needs to agree. The important thing is that
many decent UMCs are available; if you download them, they appear
on your game menu and are practically no less mainline than anything
else. So it's up to the user to find out what's available and download what he wants.
The objection to adding campaigns to mainline is that
it increases the core Wesnoth tarball -or binary- thus making it hard
for people with a slow connection to download Wesnoth at all.
I do not really favor taking out campaigns-if I do not like a campaign, I do not play it-, except if they are broken in some way. If and when the
question of adding more campaigns comes, there are a number of candidates.

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esr
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Yes, it's time for Northern Rebirth to go mainline

Post by esr »

I think Northern Rebirth is ready to go mainline. It's a big, meaty campaign with a lot of tactical variety and unusual situations.

NR's biggest flaw, in my opinion, was the execrable storyline prose. Taurus is not a bad storyteller, but his prose construction is a traiin wreck. I've been working with him on a rewrite that addresses this. I don'tknow WML or campaign design yet, but I doctor prose pretty well.

With that fixed, I think this campaign is every bit as good as the showcase mainline ones like HTTT and Eastern Invasion.

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Post by Yogibear »

Higher Game, if you think "The South Guard" needs improvement, why don't you make some more detailed suggestions, maybe by providing better scenario config files?

Then we would have something more concrete to discuss about instead of the less helpful "Nah, this is no good, you need more mages" :? .

For the next time you might consider that many people put a lot of work into making a campaign before you criticise it the way you did. If i had been among the creators i wouldn't be happy reading that.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Yogi Bear wrote:For the next time you might consider that many people put a lot of work into making a campaign before you criticise it the way you did. If i had been among the creators i wouldn't be happy reading that.
That doesn't invalidate the criticism, nor it is alone a reason not to voice it. If I spent a year hacking at a big rock trying to make a sculpture of the Millennium Falcon and it ended up looking like a potato, then whether or not I want to admit to myself that I just wasted a year of my time isn't the reason for someone not to tell that they think I didn't do very well. Speaking the truth can never be wrong, unless you've made a promise not to tell (and even in that case, it's ok to still tell that you've made a promise not to tell).

Of course, thinking (and saying) that criticism without better ideas or even offers of help is futile is perfectly fine, too.

Disclaimer: the hacking at a rock was an analogy. I was not suggesting that TSG was a waste of someone's time.
Last edited by zookeeper on January 5th, 2007, 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

commanderkeen
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Re: Yes, it's time for Northern Rebirth to go mainline

Post by commanderkeen »

esr wrote:I think Northern Rebirth is ready to go mainline. It's a big, meaty campaign with a lot of tactical variety and unusual situations.

NR's biggest flaw, in my opinion, was the execrable storyline prose. Taurus is not a bad storyteller, but his prose construction is a traiin wreck. I've been working with him on a rewrite that addresses this. I don'tknow WML or campaign design yet, but I doctor prose pretty well.

With that fixed, I think this campaign is every bit as good as the showcase mainline ones like HTTT and Eastern Invasion.
I would agree with that, although personally I don't like the massive length of each scenario.

I think most completed campaigns on the campaign server are ready to go mainline, but they can't be included because of size restrictions and unbalanced difficulty. The mainline campaigns should all be the same difficulty on the same difficulty setting. Also, the mainline campaigns are the ones more people will enjoy and are the ones that if they were on the campaign server, would be the popular ones.

Duke Paterson
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Post by Duke Paterson »

If i had been among the creators i wouldn't be happy reading that.
If I had been among the creators, I might feel like responding in kind:

Moderator's note: image removed as it was definately not constructive in its meta-criticism. -D.F.

Post criticism in a more constructive way.
Last edited by Duke Paterson on January 5th, 2007, 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

freim
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Post by freim »

zookeeper wrote: That doesn't invalidate the criticism, nor it is alone a reason not to voice it.
* The main purpose of these forums are to improve Wesnoth.
* Constructive criticism can help improve Wesnoth.
* Criticism which isn't consctructive is just noise (and tend to generate even more noise) and detract from the main purpose.

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

freim wrote:
zookeeper wrote: That doesn't invalidate the criticism, nor it is alone a reason not to voice it.
* The main purpose of these forums are to improve Wesnoth.
* Constructive criticism can help improve Wesnoth.
* Criticism which isn't constructive is just noise (and tend to generate even more noise) and detract from the main purpose.
This particular criticism is poorly expressed. (Higher Game, if you believe your opinions have value, consider expressing it in a way that people are more likely to listen to).

But (to confuse matters) destructive criticism can be constructive. eg. In this case, the criticism boils down to "tSG is not currently good enough to be shipped with mainline. Let's take it out until it improves significantly". This can be seen as destructive in that it's a total naysaying of tSG rather than an effort to improve it. But it's still constructive criticism because (if Higher Game is correct in his assertion) then it will be an improvement to Wesnoth mainline to remove tSG.

Higher Game, we put together a post here on how best to present your ideas in order to have them listened to. It's intended for the Ideas Forum, but the bulk of it applies generally.

Gus
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Post by Gus »

freim wrote: * Criticism which isn't consctructive is just noise (and tend to generate even more noise) and detract from the main purpose.
Not really. If something is ugly or poorly done, then even though i cannot do it better, doesn't mean i shouldn't say it.

I can't build a chair, but if i see someone sitting on a chair and the chair crumbles, then i can definitely say it was a poorly built chair. I can't tell you how to make it sturdier, because i'm no carpenter, but the fact remains it sucked as a chair.

Note: this is a comment on "criticism", not on Higher Game in general, or this thread in particular.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

freim
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Post by freim »

Being constructive doesn't preclude making negative statements about an issue. Whats important is backing up your statements with proper arguments and make suggestions on how to improve the issue at hand.

whether you can do better yourself is irrelevant, as is judging on the sole factor whether a statement is positive or negative. How a person back up his statements with arguments and suggestions is the only important issue here.

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Post by Yogibear »

I really don't want to quite criticism per se if there has been put a lot of work into something. But for me the way to do this is as important as the matter itself.

@freim:
I remember yourself getting real upset about a guy that harshly complained about some castle transitions. Although he was absolutely right the way he acted wasn't constructive at all.
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Gus
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Post by Gus »

I'm not saying anyone can be a jerk, even if they're right =)

I was just saying that one can voice valid criticism without necessarily being able to "do better" or to propose solutions. I totally agree with you guys on the fact that criticism needs to be backed up by arguments, interesting, and thought. 'tSG sux you n00bz' is not valid criticism ;) But i didn't think Higher Game was acting that way in this thread. Then again, i'm used to his style, so maybe i just didn't notice =D
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

freim
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Post by freim »

Yogi Bear wrote: @freim:
I remember yourself getting real upset about a guy that harshly complained about some castle transitions. Although he was absolutely right the way he acted wasn't constructive at all.
No, I wasn't upset. I was pissed off that he nagged about something I and the rest of the art team was completely aware of again and again. I don't mind people critizizing flaws in my work, I just don't have patience for annoying people :p

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